Bigfoot Encounters of Salt Fork State Park with John Hickenbottom

0:00 Uh. This particular story involves two people who were in a car um a man and a woman in a car parked on what back then was just a picnic area. In the middle of the night, something large Harry and two leg it picked up the rear end of their car and held it, you know, they were they were gunning the gas and couldn't go anywhere, and finally it dropped it and they took off, and they they told they allegedly had told a park ranger about it. There's this whole other portion that's kind of this conspiratorial cover up that also probably never happened. I've been told by so many people that, oh yeah, after that happened, we tried to go out there to see, you know, where it happened at, and there were two armed rangers, you know, blocking off the road and telling turning people away. This episode of Big for Society contains a chat with John Hickinbottom, naturalist from Salt Fork State Park in Ohio. John is a known and vetted individual within a big foot community is very respected within the Ohio DNR.

1:12 Enjoy this conversation. All right, Big Society, thanks for coming back to another episode. We have the privilege of talking again to an old friend, mister John Hickinbottom. How's it going, John? Good? How about yourself? Oh? I'm doing great. It feels like I just got to see out in Ohio actually at monster Fest. That was That was a fun time. We got a kind of a long chat there for a while. That was Yeah. That was a good event too. That was a nice event. Oh, it was yeah. And just a little plug for small town monsters. They just announced that the second one will be happening end of June of next year. So if you didn't get to go to the first monster Fest, you really don't want to miss out on the second one because it's going to be even more wild. So that's my plug for them.

2:02 M John. Let's let's talk a little bit about who you are. Just so listeners that haven't gotten to listen to the first John episode, which I recommend you do, but they want to know that you are the head naturalists at Salt Fork State Park in Ohio. Correct. Yeah, yeah, So it's the it's the largest state park and Ohio and it has the distinction of being Ohio's um Ohio's capital of you know, the Bigfoot capital of the Buckeye State. Um, it's kind of where a lot of historically, it's sort of where a lot of the the states, UM, earlier big foot sidings and big Foot reports kind of came from the Salt Fork area. UM, so it's uh, it's got that distinction. And I grew up around there, so I kind of grew up around all of the all of that folklore and and everything. So it's uh, yeah, it's a pretty cool place.

3:04 I think it's the largest big foot conference east of the Mississippi is posted it Salt Fork. Yeah, and it's a it's a good time too. UM if you've ever if you've never had the opportunity, it's a pretty cool, pretty cool event. Also it's on my my I guess you could say big Foot buckle list. Oh were you not there this year? That was kind of a blur for me. Um this year. We because I have a table there every year, UM, and that that event this year was a bit of a blur. UM. Everything was we were we were positioned in a good spot. Our table was right in front of the right in front of the entrance to the conference room where all the speakers were. So it was non it was non stop all day talking to people, and uh, it was it was kind of a blur. I thought you were I guess Cryptogon would have been the would have been the last one that we got to chat at them. If you weren't at the big Foot Conference this year, it would have been different. Thing about these conferences. Yeah, if yeah, if listeners don't if they don't know these these conferences go really quick and if you see someone, you've got to talk to them right then because you probably won't see them again right on the day. Yeah, and that's and and it's hard for me to keep track. Like generally, uh, a lot of times I'm not like part of the conference. I just go there to chat with people, um and things and you know, meet up with people like you, uh, you know, folks that I've gotten to

4:36 know in this community. Um. But I mean a lot of times I'll go with my family, Like I'll drive my family comes along these are we sort of do these big Foot Conference trips now. Uh, it's a whole thing. So a lot of times my wife and my wife and kids will go, um, you know, go get crypted stuff from all the artists and vendors there, and then I go, like talk to folks like you you know what I mean for the whole day. Um, and my wife, my wife is kind of my uh, she's kind of like my hype man. She's the uh she she will go chat with show, chat with a podcaster at a table somewhere and then say, oh, you should talk to my husband. He's uh, he's the naturalist salt work. So she's gotten me so many like I've gotten so many interviews just because just because my my wife will go, you know, chat with people and then say, oh, yeah, you'd you'd like to talk to my husband. So that's kind of you know, it's kind of cool. She's the uh, she's the paul bearer to my undertaker. You know. Um a good a good yeah, yeah, you know, it's my hype man. It was really nice to meet your your family as well. Yeah yeah, yeah, well, I mean the kids and the good kids all I'll go to it.

5:50 So it's you know, it's kind of one of our family things now as going to these conferences. So yeah, we are going to do that for the first time next year. Um. And it's still in the works, but it looks like, uh, well we'll be trying to swing down to Tennessee for the Smoky Mountain big And that's another that's another great event. That's another good one. Yeah. Um, it's basic too. Yeah, yeah, it's very nice. That's uh. I think we're going to the first one. Um, we haven't gone for a couple of years. It was it was that summer where things started to get normal again after COVID, before it all tanked one, you know what I mean. It was like summer twenty twenty one. We all went and then uh, everything kind of got weird again. Um, but yeah, it was. It's a really good Yeah, it's a really good event. That's a that's a nice event.

6:48 Um. A lot of good a lot of good speakers at that one. It's a great venue too. I mean Gatlinburg's great. You know, it's the Vegas of the Smokies. It's awesome. You know. Oh I am looking so forward to Yeah, you have no idea. I love that. That's awesome. I mean it makes sense, right but right, So, John, we I asked you to come back on because I was really curious. I wanted to talk to you specifically about there's got to be some great Bigfoot stories or encounters that you've heard over the years to do with Salt Fork.

7:29 Yeah, yeah, for sure. I usually get somebody will tell me some story. Now some of them, it's it's incredibly difficult to vet all of these, you know what I mean, because some of them are extremely like a friend of a friend, some of them are you know. Well, Actually, one that I'd like to tell you about today happened in like nineteen eighty one, so the park was still relatively young. I mean, the park had only opened in seventy two, officially opened in seventy two, seventy. Between seventy and seventy two, the park had kind of in phases, so the park was still relatively young when this particular one happened. But you know it was so it's that long ago, like nineteen eighty one, nineteen eighty two when I had heard about this. And actually the gentleman that this happened to had written in to another show, another podcast, and they were doing like a listener email day, and when I heard him tell a story about Salt Pork, I was like, So I contacted them and I said, is there any way I explained who I was, and I said, is there any way that I can get this guy's contact, like this guy's email, so I can maybe talk to him and get a location, you know what I mean, where his signing happened. So I got his email and eventually connected with him and got to talk and kind of narrowed down the loca, I mean, the part of the parks twenty thousand acres.

8:52 So narrowing sometimes narrowing down our location in the woods is a little little tricky, but I kind of narrowed it down because of a couple of key things which kind of play into the big foot sighting to begin with. Um, but I can just do you mind if I just tell you that particular encounter, if we get if we get into yeah, go right ahead. So this gentleman, we have it. The whole park is, uh, like I said, it's twenty thousand acres, and we have, um, a few thousand acres of public hunting land that you're allowed to hunt fish trap on, you know, it's it's public hunting land. And then of course there's there's park land where hunting is prohibited because of you know, traffic, visitor traffic and things like that. You're obviously not allowed to hunt off of hiking trails, things like that. So there are parts of the park that are really rugged that people just don't go, you know, not for any reason other than it's very difficult to get there. Um. So this gentleman was hunting in the nineteen eighties, in the early nineteen eighties, nineteen eighty one, eighty two with his dad. In the story that he told was it was very cold, nice snow on the ground. So he's deer hunting, and they had shot a dough and the dough ran off and they were tracking it and they got within about one hundred yards of it. They found that they located the dough, you know, followed the blood trail, located the dough, and standing over top of the dough was about an eight foot bipedal,

10:28 hair covered animal that proceeded to scoop up their deer, throw it over their shoulder and walk off, kind of looked at them for a second, turned around and walked off, and they were just frozen. So obviously when I heard that story, I'm like, man, that is a great you know, that is a great encounter, you know. And I mean on the other side of that, like what a great hunting story to begin with, you know what I mean? Like oh, no, like, and that's what makes me kind of I think that this was maybe there's I don't think that he's lyne to me, you know, because I mean, if you were in a line, why not shoot a buck that's this big and the you know, a big foot takes it and carries it off, you know what I mean? He said he shot a dough, so he wasn't he wasn't stretching the truth as far as like, oh, you know, I shot a ten point buck. It was you know, it was a dough that he shot. But I mean, man, what a great story.

11:20 So he'd written into another show. They read this story on air and I had to contact him. So when I talked to him, he explained the whole thing, told me the story, he said, you know, and very few frills. That's another thing that didn't really turn my you know, didn't really like uh trigger my like bs radar was that, you know that there were very few frills. It was basically straightforward. He said, No, you know, I shot this deer. We tracked it and there was this thing standing over it. It scooped it up, through it over its shoulder and walked off. And the I really wanted to know a location because it's a huge park. So I really and he told me he could.

12:03 He remembered walking up a horse trail and there that they were hunting out of an old apple orchard. Now, the park is made up of two hundred plus old farms that used to be functioning up until the fifties when the states started buying land. So some of them were very small, you know, twenty acre farms. Some of them were over two hundred acres. And when he said there was an apple orchard, I knew pretty much. He told me where at approximately in the park he was, and when he said there was an old apple orchard, I was able to like figure out because I knew I knew where an old apple orchard was in that area. So and it's a very rugged place. But here's here's my thinking too, Like an old apple orchards still got you know, it's a great place to deer hunt because those old apple trees still produce apples. Now they're going to be like tiny and bitter and you know, hard apples. But it's a great place to deer hunt because the deer don't care in the middle of winter calories or calories you know, what I mean. So if they're old, dried out apples still hanging out on the trees, those are still calories. And it would stand to reason that something you know, that had that needs the chloric intake of like a four or five hundred pound bipedal, you know, animal like a big foot, would also not pass up those calories, regardless of they're you know, little bitter apples or not. So, so that location, you know, I'm like, man, that is ideal because it's off of any there's no trails, it's it's out of the it's out of the way. The closest thing is a bridle trail, a horse trail that

13:35 kind of cuts up through there, and interesting, like interesting in its own It's one of the locations, like near the nearest road there is one of those spots that we people claim to see black bears quite a bit. But this is in the nineteen eighties when black bears in Ohio would have been like really scarce. They've only just in the last like twenty years started to come back into the eastern part of the state. Um So talking to you know, looking at the nineteen in nineteen eighty one or nineteen eighty two, there weren't a you know, there wasn't an abundance of black bears coming across over from West Virginia and Pennsylvania at the time. Now now it's less. It's uh, it's not uncommon to have a black bear. I mean, we're nowhere near like Tennessee where we need bearproof dumpsters at least like not yet.

14:26 But um, you know, they're they're around. I've had one on my property um here and I live about nine miles from the park, ten miles from the park, So uh, they're around, you know. But um, I'm kind of I don't think that it would have been a black bear um in that case, just because the time period that in the nineteen eighties. But now, um, now this is kind of one of the locations that people occasionally see black bears. Um. And my thinking is, you know, well, there's probably a significant overlap between a large two two large omnivores, you know what I mean as far as sharing habitat, Like you've got two two large omnivores, they probably share very very similar habitats, you know, um, and this would be a good spot for either of them.

15:16 So that's that's a kind of an old you know, kind of an old story again nineteen eighties. Um. And then like I said, I'm telling I'm retelling it because the gentleman um gave me permission to kind of retell that story. Um. But absolutely it's always important to get permission, right yeah. Um. So then I have one memorable story. It happened in the early early two thousands. Um. Two fishermen were night fishing there for catfish. We've got these We've got these kind of big mutant flathead catfish like these, you know, these kind of river monster catfish that live in the lake, you know, so style stuff. Yeah. Yeah, So night fishing is a kind of a big past time in the park because because these big, these big flathead catfish, you know, they can get up like sixty pounds that sort of thing. Big, that's a big fish. Um.

16:14 So we uh, there were two night fishermen, um, kind of on the north end of the park, near an area known as host X Cave, which actually has its own encounter and has like which I'll kind of get to the closest thing that I have ever personally seen firsthand that could resemble a footprint, you know what I mean. That someone didn't say hey, we found a footprint. When I come check it out, Yeah, me and actually me and two of the guys from Sasquatch Tracks were out hiking at host X Cave and found, you know, found something that looked suspiciously like a big footprint. It wasn't great, you know what I mean. But this isn't the same area. But those gentlemen were night fishing in that area and started having They described between softball and bowling ball sized rocks getting and they said they weren't getting rolled down the hill or chucked straight at them, they were getting like catapulted. They said. They looked when we finally started because we kept hearing these big splashes. And he said, when we when we looked up, we could see them like arc out of the woods, out of the trees. They actually would arc out of the trees and then end of the lake, you know, um at them. And they said, uh, you know they were they were. It would be really hard in my opinion, for a you know, person to you know hulk um softball size you know, hunk a black hat and sandstone up out of the trees,

17:47 clear over the tree line, you know, and into the water from the hillside so they were intense. Yeah, yeah, so they and they witnessed this for for a while. And the thing was that the rocks kept getting close, like kept getting you know, they kept getting launched from a closer and closer location. So they kind of skidaddled out of there, you know. They they got out of there, but immediately told people like that. I believe they might have even done a b BFRO or report on it. I think it might be. I think it might be on the BFRO database for Ohio. UM. But it was you know that, that's an interesting story there. I have not gotten the chance to speak to those two individuals. Um. This is one of those stories that is like one of salt pork stories, you know that's it's kind of the park story, now you know what I mean that. And then there's one in the campfire story either this is one of the Yeah, and there's also there's also one that I have no I have got no. UM. I'll tell this because it's it's important in this in this UH community, in this this subject, it's important to keep some uh, keep some skepticism, like you should be you should be open minded, um. But as a good scientist, you need to you need to have some skep skepticism, you know. And uh, I do have one story that uh I've got no evidence that it actually happened, but it gets retold and retold and retold, and and I can't I

19:18 can't find a single I can't find a single speck of evidence that it actually actually happened, you know. Um, But there's the story. Our primitive camp is in an area called big Foot Ridge. Now it's called that, um because of the Bigfoot activity that had happened there in the past. And also kind of a marketing thing. You know. Everybody knows that we like we do kind of marketing, you know what I mean, Uh, salt bigfoot salt work, spread and butter, So we do we do use it, you know, like you whenever I get accused of like oh you're you know, you're um, people will often say something like, well, have you evercotany Like have you evercotany you know gruff from like talking about big Foot, And I'm like, well, it'd be different if you couldn't go to the gift store and get a big Foot plushy, you know what I mean, Like it's kind of it's kind of you know what I mean, like, it would be different if I were just some if I were just like, hey, you know, no one's talking about this, but these things are happening, that'd be totally different than I'd be like, but you know, you can go to the gift shop and buy a big Foot coffee mug.

20:21 So talking about it's not such a big not not quite the big deal that sometimes it gets made out to be. Um. But this particular story involves two people who were in a car, a man and a woman in a car parked on what back then was just a picnic area in the middle of the night, and something large, hairy and two legg had picked up the rear end of their car and held it, you know. They were they were gunning, gunning the gas and couldn't go anywhere, and finally it dropped it and they took off, and they they told they allegedly had told a park ranger about it. And that's kind of where that the Bigfoot portion of the story ends. Um. But then there's this whole other portion that's kind of this conspiratorial cover up that also probably never happened that I've been told by so many people that oh yeah, after that happened. We tried to go out there to see you know where it happened at, and there were two armed rangers just you know, blocking off the road and telling turning people away. So here's the thing. The number of people that have told me that they went there and two rangers said there's a there's an unknown animal and turn them away, like there would have been a line of cars clear out of the park because of the number of people that said I was there that

21:52 night I went and two rangers turned me away, you know what I mean. Also, I've spoke to a I had spoke to a tired ranger back when they called them rangers still, who who was not afraid to like talk about Bigfoot. He actually had one of his He was on he was on Monster Quest, the Salt Pork episode of Monster Quest of telling a story about an animal looking in the window at the old ranger station at one point. Um, so not afraid to talk about it. He has no recollection of this, and he had been he would have been there. He was like one of the first officers that got hired at Salt Pork, so he would have been there, you know what I mean. So I have no evidence that when we talk about campfire stories, that one comes up over and over, so it has to it's got to have a nugget of truth somewhere, Like someone had to be freaked out while they were in the in their car with their girlfriend. Something happened, you know what I mean. But it has grown into this like, oh, yeah, I was there that night.

22:52 There were there were rangers, you know, turning turning people away because of something was going on, you know what I mean. Like I had n aunt and uncle to tell about tell me about that same story, and I'm like, I've got no there's no evidence that this happened, you know, but there's got to be a nugget of truth. And in that area, people have there have been some really compelling like audio recordings that I've heard that people have collected. I know, I know one researcher. Yeah, so I know one researcher that would make it a habit of just carrying around like the little digital you know, tape recorders you can get it like the college bookstore, you know, and he would just turn them on and put them like in the crotch of a tree as he's walking, you know what I mean. And then kind of collect them on his way back, just to see if they picked up anything. So not the most not the most technologically advanced thing, but you know, it's something, and it's not a terrible idea. I mean, I'm sure you can pick up all kinds of stuff. And he has actually recorded some really interesting things. One recording that was really fascinating to me and fascinating to him, like he was fastinated about it because he remembers when he recorded it. You can hear you can hear him like turn in on the recorder and put it in the tree, and then you hear him walk off with his two feet you know what I mean.

24:11 Um, you can hear him walk off, and each each recorder that he had had this same recording, you know, kind of the shuffling around. You can hear him position and then him walking off clearly bipedal, you know, and just a just ten fifteen seconds after he walks off, something very heavy and bipedal walks right by, you know, and you can hear this crunch crunch, crunch, crunch, and it fades off. And every single recorder picked this up after he you know, ten fifteen seconds after he had placed the recorder so so it was like something was just tracking him just far enough, you know what I mean. Um So, that that, to me is kind of an interesting, um interesting story. But that a whole area, that Bigfoot Ridge area, it's called that partially because you know, it's kind of a campy thing, but also because it historically had some sightings. I mean, there's the story about the two people in the car, but there's also when it was still a picnic area, there's also a story about a family picnic and seeing two of them just kind of come out of the woods and nonchalantly walk back into the woods, you know, walk through. Yeah, and they witnessed it. They sort of all, you know, stopped eating their potato salad and watched and froze, you know, and then then you know, and had to find somebody to tell about it.

25:33 Um So, that whole area has its own its own sort of legends and stuff, and it is pretty remote. Um I actually I'm pretty familiar with that area because I've done a lot of hikes back there and stuff. So and it's it's pretty remote and pretty rugged. I usually will take people if I've got to say, like a reporter that wants to wants to really go out and like, I'm not going to take them on a really heavily traffic trail, so I'll usually take them out out there just to kind of get them out in the woods. And it feels, you know what I mean, it feels more remote than say one of our pretty common trails. Um So, you know, it's a that's a that's an interesting area.

26:14 Uh so here here most recently, this is kind of an interesting story. And and you know, when you're involved in this community, you get all kinds of you get all all all manner of stories, you know. Um, And sometimes it's really hard to vate. And like I've noticed a lot of times people just need someone to listen to them, you know what I mean, and go wow, interesting, you know, that's fascinating. Um, they don't they don't even need necessarily need somebody to analyze. This is one thing that I kind of go back and forth with some of my research friends, like some of the some of the people that are hardcore you know, bigfoot researchers, rather than like what I primarily do is education, um So rather than doing you know, a lot of heavy I do. I do a fair amount of research, but I always say, I spend more time out looking for snakes and salamanders and stuff than I do bigfoot, you know, m Because I think it's important if you're if you're in this, if you're studying this, you shouldn't just be studying. You should be you should be kind of taking it all in, you know, you should take it like a naturalist's approach to it. You know, you should be trying to take it all in. So I try to do as much research as I can, but I'm always, you know, kind of more interested in other stuff. I get to I get distracted while I'm out there, you know what I mean, I'm out I you know, it's it's pretty rare for me to be able to go out and like just set in the woods and squatch you know. Um, I'll usually get distracted by like, oh cool, this is cool plants here or something, you know. Um.

27:47 But I kind of go back and forth with a lot of the researchers at the park where it's like sometimes sometimes people aren't necessarily telling you story. You're their story for you to like analyze it and figure out what they saw and tell them, you know, what you think about it. Sometimes they just need to tell their story, you know what I mean. Sometimes they just need to get it out there, and you're a good outlet for that, you know, because a lot of times, a lot of times the researchers will get real laser focused, you know, and they'll be like, oh, well, you know, I kind of doubt that that that's what you saw. You probably saw a black bear because this situation or oh you know, what you were seeing was actually some sort of and you know, they would they'll they'll kind of speculate as to what was going on, you know, why, why they saw it in that context or something, And I'm like, wow, sometimes people aren't really looking for that, they're just kind of looking to tell your story, and and here there's a lace for that, right, but yeah, yeah, right, there is a place to like analyze stuff. But sometimes if somebody comes up after a program and they don't directly ask me, what do you think of this, a lot of times what they get as wow, that's fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing, because that's interesting because I you know, I can't be rude to people, you know, and I also can't like I don't want to like if they clearly saw a black bear I don't want to say, well, that's just silly. You clearly saw a black but you know what I mean.

29:11 But also, like I mean, I've had some people who get really into like the the sort of um ooky, spooky paranormal bigfoot stuff, you know, where a big foot's maybe not a critter, it's more of a paranormal being. And you know, they talk about portals and things like that, and a lot of times all the best I can do is like, oh, you know orbs and you know, and I will admit that there is weird stuff that kind of goes on once you get into this subject. And the same same ghost for like uophology or you know, uh, paranoor any paranormal stuff. Like once you get into the subject, you start seeing really weird stuff, you know what I mean, Like you start you start experiencing like weird things, not necessarily paranormal things. That's not what I mean, but like I kind of opens you up to like it kind of you start you start like observing things that you're like, huh, And I'm really comfortable now saying like, yeah, I don't know, that's really strange.

30:11 For instance, the most recent story that I've got came at the end of April this year. Actually vote right before the big Foot conference end of April. It was still kind of slow. The campground wasn't packed, you know, And a lady and her husband about five in the morning, got woke up. Their dogs started going crazy, just going nuts in their camper, and they woken up by their camper was actually rocking back and forth, you know. They could feel it, and they said it wasn't violent. They said it was like someone was standing on top of it and just kind of like gently rocking it back and forth from on top of the camper, you know. And they said they could they couldn't quite put their finger on it.

31:00 Why there's no wind, and they said it was clearly like rhythmic, you know. And they said, finally it stopped, and they heard some rustling around, and the husband went out with the dog and looked around. No footprints, know anything. And she goes up to the camp store to tell somebody about it. And she opens up the door and all of a sudden there's all this big foot stuff in the camp store and she's like, oh, his bigfoot, like a bigfoot a thing, you know what I mean? Here, and you know, they told her. Yeah, and she's like, oh, man, so last night we got woken up first thing that, you know, well, this morning we got woken up by something on the roof of our camper, rocking the camper back and forth, you know. And she said it wasn't violent, but it was enough to like notice it was like a noticeable rocking back and forth. And uh, you know, she told me this story and she's like I and she's like, we couldn't find any tracks, but honestly, I don't We were expect tend to go out and see like, you know, a person, you know what I mean, or a really big rock who or something a bear, you know what I mean, something, and there's just nothing there.

32:12 And uh, you know that particular story, I'm like, I don't know what to make of that because it could have been it could have been a bear. I mean, it could have been a bear. Probably wasn't a person. I feel like what I don't know. We don't have we don't have like a ton of really like we don't have that. We don't have like a problem with like mentally old people just sort of like you know, running through the campgrounds causing you know, issues, I feel like someone else would have noticed. Yeah, but yeah, that was kind of an and she was in a loop, which it has its own like kind of history of Bigfoot. Actually, one of our really well known big foot prints came from just down over the hill from where her campsite was. UM. And it's kind it's like, I believe this particular print is actually the original is in Cliff's museum, like Cliff Barrickman's museum. Um, he's got he's got one of the originals or the original of this footprint twelve. Yeah, so that whole area has its own its own history. A big Foot sighting is a very well known sighting. Uh. Um that happened just it happened on a trail just adjacent to a loop in the campground. UM. A gentleman named Walter Tippy back in twenty eleven. He was actually a vendor at the at a. It might not have been the big Foot conference. It might have been like Creature Weekend or one of the one of the little like proto

33:43 big Foot conferences that used to happen at the lodge. UM, but he was a vendor there and he was he had talked to these two fishermen who had said they'd seen something out in the woods. So he was going to go meet a friend and they were going to go investigate, you know. And he went out and he looked up on the hillside heading toward a loop, and he thought it was his friend. He thought, he like, why is he wearing this jacket? That's what he That was his first thought, why is he wearing, you know, a raincoat. And then he noticed there were two of them, and he said, as he was watching, they sort of glided up the hill and he said they were going so fast that it was no way that it was his friend. You know, his friend had two fake knees something like that, you know. And I mean, like his friend wasn't going to glide up a hill. And he witnessed it right in that area. So that area does have its own its own sort of its own sort of history with big foot stuff. And like I said, the Cave area. A former employee at the lodge was heading to work one day one night, actually heading to work one night and witness something. Witness this black shape sort of stand up from the side of the road like it was setting on the side of the road, stand up, walk sort of parallel to the road for a bit and then cross and when they got to work, Um, they said, I saw something that I can't explain, you know. They told their their boss that They're like, well, I was on the way to work and I think I saw a

35:15 big foot, you know. So they actually put them in contact with some bigfoot researchers who came out and investigated and collected a print from the from the soft shoulder on the side of the road right there at the cave. And uh, right in that area, that whole that cave area, that's where the rock throwing happened. And like I said, that's where the closest thing to a footprint that I've seen. Uh, that's where that's where I saw the closest thing to a footprint that I have personally witnessed. Um was right there. Um and that whole area. So there's there's lots there's sort of these little hot spots and salt fork you know, um, and the cave and a loop are two of them. And then we have group camp and group camp is kind of out in the Willie Wags compared to the rest of the park. It's like a it's an area where say, a Scout group or a church group could could could rent. And it's a primitive site, but you know it's for a large like for a large group, and it's a real primitive like there's no water, yeah, and there's no potable water.

36:23 It's pit latrines, you know what I mean. Um, And it's where I think probably the last time we talked, I had I had talked about the tree knock that I had heard the one time. Um, probably yes, Um, but yeah, so which is a whole other thing like tree knocks. I don't get me started, because I kind of don't think that they're probably not knocking a piece of wood on a tree, you know, it's probably mechanical. But um, the that area has there's an area within group camp that Bigfoot researchers like affectionately called the bleachers because multiple times people have witnessed, you know, like a small group of sort of large shadowy shapes just sort of watching whoever is camping in the group camp. You know, So they kind of call they call that area the bleachers because they just sort of you know, there's an area where like people will witness stuff just sort of watching whoever's camping there. You know, which is pretty creepy, right, I mean that's a you know, um, yeah, that's really creepy. Yeah, yeah, right right. And like I said, the researchers that stay there frequently refer to that area as the bleachers. And it's interesting. I talked to so where I had that tree knock and kind of some stuff happened in that area. I had gone back to a there was a research group standing back there, and I went back just to chat with him, and this one old fellow walks up and he I said, uh, I said, yeah, right over whoever's staying over in that camp site.

37:53 I'm like, that's where. That's where I had like the closest thing to an experience that I've ever had to get. And it's no smoking gun, Like I I can't say with any certainty that there's something out there. I know that there's something out there because people are seeing something, you know what I mean, But like, I haven't experienced something that tells me like one hundred percent there's this undiscovered primate, you know, but there's got to be something to it. And that was the closest experience I've ever had to like an encounter was right in that area, and he's like, oh, that is exactly that's exactly why I picked that spot every time we camp here. He's like, I picked that spot because something happens there every time.

38:36 He said. It might be simple, he said, it might be acorns getting chucked out of the woods and hit my tent, he said, but something happens when I stay in that spot every time. And I'm like, well, I mean something happened there when I stayed there, and it was enough to like creep me out, you know, So so yeah, I mean we And like I said, man, I get I get stories like once a week through at the park, but some of them are so so incredibly hard to vet, you know. And some of them are as simple as like, oh, I was you know, I was driving one night, man, something ran across the road in front of me, and for the life of me, I don't know what it was, you know. And And unfortunately, on the other side of this, because Salt Fork has such a history and has such a it's so popular at the park, we also have a lot of hoaxes that have happened. There are a lot of there's really good videos that get every once in a while, they'll show up on social media. You know, somebody will dig them back up and they're they're not real, Like we know that they're not real, Like we know who did them, those sorts of things. And it's kind of unfortunate.

39:45 You know. The same goes anywhere where there's like a prevalence of this sort of stuff. You get those hoaxes, and that's kind of unfortunate because that makes our job more difficult because I gotta suss out, well, was it somebody in a suit? You know what I mean, Like that's I gotta sus out whether it's a hoax or not, you know what I mean. Um, And that makes it but um, I do, I do. I do believe a fair number of people that I talk to because many of them, uh don't have any skin in the bigfoot game, so to speak, you know what I mean, Like they're not hardcore researchers. Yeah, so there there is a good portion of people who like don't seem to have any reason to kind of you know what I mean, Like they seem like normal people, Like they're not having a psychotic episode. They seem like normal people, you know, And uh, it's it's hard for me to completely disregard them. You know, Um, it's hard for me to disregard, uh, some of those stories in particular. I mean even not from like I mean from Salt Pork, but I mean a few years ago, a few years ago, a nice you know, little old lady with her family at the park, uh, came over and she was looking at I've got a map where people can put pins in if they've had an experience. You know, it's a map of Ohio and if they've had an experience, and some of them, like clearly you know, they probably didn't see big Foot in downtown Columbus, you know what I mean, like in a metropark in

41:15 downtown Columbus, like which hopefully not. Yeah, like you know you probably didn't like but you know so, But the map's kind of interesting because you start seeing like trends, you start seeing where we're like pins will start to cluster together, you know what I mean. And most of them are in areas where like it's heavily wooded, lots of vegetation, or it's heavily agricultural, which is another interesting thing, you know. Um, And I had this lady and she's like, well, you know this is only Ohio, and what happened to me happened in West Virginia. And I was just a kid, she's and she said, it was right right over the border. Can I put a pin? Can I put a pin in the white spot on the map where about where it would be in West Virginia? I said, yeah, sure, did you know? Do it? Like? So she put a pen like in the blank spot and I said, do you want to tell me your story? And she said yeah. So she's like, I'm old enough that I actually went to a one room schoolhouse. You know. She's like, I went to school up to like fourth grade in a one room schoolhouse. And she said that, you know, she remembers very clearly when she was and there was one one spring where there was a monkey who kept bothering the school. There was a monkey that would come in and look in the window at the school. And and she's like, you know, it wasn't until I was older that I realized that West Virginia didn't have monkeys, you know, like and uh and you know that it probably what And I'm like, you see, but I have She was like a little old grandma, you know what I mean, Like she could have been

42:46 my grandma, and it's really hard for me to just be like yeah, and that might be a bias that you know, it's a you know, observational bias thing, you know what I mean, where I'm like, oh, you're a sweet little lady. You wouldn't lie to me. But it's really hard for me to dismiss yeah, right, you know, um, really hard for me to And it's also kind of a fascinating story. She's like, oh, yeah. It wasn't until I was older that I realized like we probably weren't seeing a monkey, you know. Um. So so I get stories like that quite a bit. I have a question for your regarding stories that come into you. Would you say most of them are like I kind of caught a glimpse of something I couldn't really see it, or there are do you get anywhere it's like I literally was looking at the face of the creature. It's a it's a primate ieside dead on or is it kind of like glimpses in the shadows? I guess a majority of them, as you kind of would expect, are like I was out and we saw something, you know, something went running through the woods. There are I have had people come in and tell me, like I saw this, you know, I clearly saw it. Um. A gentleman fishing fishing just outside the park saw something across the creek. He was fishing, like in the spillway area where our damn is, so it's kind of a creek, you know. Uh, he was fishing in the creek and across the creek he saw something that he described, you know, and he said that it it basically it scared him because it kind of went crazy. He said, it

44:16 went crazy like a monkey goes crazy, tossing leaves and sticks and things. And he said, uh, he said he took he took off, he said, but he saw it. He said it was a it was a long tall uh, definitely a long tall primate. And he said it was behaving like a primate, you know. He said it was throwing sticks up in the air and leaves and making noise and he saw it dead on um and you know, it's it's scared him. He actually he actually had reported that one to a researcher. UM and it scared him. He said, you know, he's like, I'm a vet, you know, and it like a veteran and he's like I'm I'm not scared of much, but it scared me, you know, he said, it's because it was just so it was something that you don't expect to see, you know, in southeast Ohio. You know. Um, so yeah, I mean we do.

45:07 We do get instances where people have We've you know, we've got the sort of tent pokers, you know what I mean, people have reported something like pressing down the top of their tent. You know. That's um, hold on, hold on. So I find that very interesting because I just talked to a gentleman from New Hampshire had the same thing happen. So is this like a normal occurrence that's happening in Salt Fork. It's not. It's not normal. I mean, I don't have people come in all the time and tell me like, oh, you know, something pushed down on the top. But it's one of the things that has been reported. It's not just been reported here. I mean, um, I don't know. If you know, John Manzinski has a he has a story about kind of pushing pushing down on his tent, you know, and him thumping at the knee, you know what I mean. Um and uh, I mean it's something and it would Again, I try to look at all this from like a naturalist standpoint, where it's like, well, is there is there like a precedence out in nature for this sort of thing? Well, it's like yeah, I mean, look like a raccoon is curious, you know, or a black bear. Like if there's something, if there's this little pod and maybe you know, you might have like granola bars or something in your you know what I mean. If it smells like food, if it smells like an easy meal, you know what I mean, something's going you know it would it would stand to reason that something would be like, hey, maybe I'll just I mean, we do that kind of stuff, like oh, maybe I'll just poke it, you know what I mean, Maybe I'll just poke it and see, you know what I mean, what's in there? Yeah?

46:39 Yeah, right right? Oh oh, I don't want to mess with that. It's screaming whatever it is, I gotta get, you know what I mean? Uh like that? Yeah? Are most of the reports you get pretty tame? Or are there any aggressive occurrences that happen in South of Park? Most of them are pretty tame. Again, most of them are like, uh, I saw something across the road, Um, I had a gentleman, I don't know, a couple of years ago, come to a hike, come to a bigfoot hike, and tell a story about being bluff charged. I was kind of skeptical about his story, mostly because of the word bluff charge, Like it seemed like he had sort of had that he'd sort of built up this scenario in his head, you know what I mean. But I mean this, there was a story about a gentleman being like bluff charged, like you know, something ran kind of toward him and stopped just short and until he ran off, you know. But yeah, I don't get other than like the rocks getting chucked out of the woods, you know. I mean, I guess that could be. I guess that could be kind of viewed in an aggressive you know light, you know what I mean, rocks getting chucked at some fishermen. But yeah, it could be I don't know, you know. Again, this is this is where I start to like, this is one of my shortcomings. Is I have such a time, like wild wildly speculating about what things mean when it comes to experiences and things like that, you know what I mean. And it's one of the things that frustrates me from like a naturalist and biologist standpoint is

48:14 like animals behave, they will behave in odd ways for no reason sometimes, you know what I mean, Like sometimes animals are just behaving weird, you know. But for the most part, you can kind of animals are kind of predictable, you know what I mean, Like you kind of know, um, what's going to happen with animals, Like for the most part, you can kind of guess what's going to happen, Like you can read an animal's body language and things like that, you know what I mean. They're they're kind of predictable. But this is something that we don't have much real information about, you know what I mean, Like so wildly speculating that a tree that you found twisted up is because of uh, you know, frustration, Like, oh, it was setting here and people were walking through its territory, so it was just twisting this in a frustrated manner. Well, it's like that's that's speculat It's pure speculation. And I get so frustrated because I'm like, we don't know enough. We do not know enough to start speculating about what things mean. How about we how about we start focusing on like what is out there? You know what I mean? What could potentially be out there and not get so lost in the weeds with some of the you know what I mean, Like, oh, what's this mean? You know what I mean? The tree knock thing, Like I said, yeah, people bring that up. I'm like, don't get me started on tree knocks. Like, Okay, so you're saying you hear three tree knocks, it means, oh, there's three you know, like you happen to be with a group of three people. So if you heard three tree knocks,

49:44 that means that they are letting the other ones know that there are three people out there, you know what I mean? Like that that is pure speculation. Yeah, yeah, right, Like, but but if you're if you're talking to the public, if you're doing a public program and you're the big foot p some like, you're the researcher that's doing a public program, which is awesome by the way, that you're doing library So though I saw that on Instagram. That's awesome that you're doing like public education stuff. Oh yeah, that's aw let's put a plug in for that real quick guy. Yeah, So yeah, go ahead, if you want to hear a bigfoot presentation I'm doing July twenty eighth Earlam Public Library because they found out that there's a person in their town that does a bigfoot podcast. So I may have told them too, I don't know, but you know, yeah, but I mean public education is the best, Like that's you know what I mean, Like it's awesome that you're going at so but you know, like in a position where you're educating the public, like the lay public, you know who is not who aren't bigfoot researchers who are just showing up because they have an interest in it, you know, and you say that like, oh, well, there are three tree knocks means there's three people, you know what I mean, they see three people, there's three three tree knocks. Then they take that to mean like, oh well they know this, you know what I mean, And it's it's like it's kind of counterproductive, you know what I mean. Oh well, the bigfoot researchers said that, So it's true, Well we don't know anything, you know what I mean. And that's giving them like an awful lot of credit, Like that's you know what I mean, that's giving them an awful lot of like this animal, we don't know anything. About that you know, may or may not exist depending

51:19 on where you fall, you know what I mean. You're just kind of saying like it can communicate in like a pretty advanced way, like you know, oh, I'll do these three treats, and then you know the idea that it's a I use tree knock because everybody knows what I'm talking about, you know, a wood knock. Everybody knows what I'm talking about. But I always challenge people. I'm like, I always kind of challenge people. I'm like, all right, you know, we're in a mixed appellation of hardwood for us here in solve work, you know what I mean. Go out right now and find me a log on the ground that's suitably dense that you can pick up and make like a Louisville Slugger home run noise by banging it again. It's another tree. You know, it's surprisingly hard because most of them are like punky, and if you do that, they're gonna like blow apart and a million pieces, you know what I mean, Like most of that. You pick up a log off the ground in the woods, it's gonna be punky and rotten, you know what I mean. And if you do find one that's like dense, it's covered in bark, like you're you're not gonna be able to replicate it. Kind of, it seems improbable that these noises that people hear, these knocks, are coming, like it seems improbable that bigfoot has like its own walking stick all the time that it's walking around, you know, banging on trees with um So, I've always assumed that if this thing is if this thing is real, and if it's out there, it's probably some sort of mechanism like it's probably popping its jaw or you know, popping its lips or even like you know what I mean,

52:52 gnashing its teeth, something like that. Something that is then they can replicate it, you know what I mean, Like they can they can do it over and over with the same results, you know. Um So, I'm I've heard from a few people to have been able to replicate the sound. I want to say, Jonathan easily is one of them. If not, sorry, buddy, you just got to shout out in my bad but um they're able to make this sound by kind of clapping their hands in front of their open mouth. I've heard in a way that I've heard that theory too. Yeah, then it makes a similar sound, a similar sound, yeah, and that would make that would make more sense, and it would make a would make so much more sense to me than like, oh, they're finding a suitable piece of wood, finding a suitably large tree and doing that every time, you know what I mean, It would make a lot more sense to me. And I know, I know in some areas, like in the Olympic Peninsula, they have found rocks that seem to have like wear patterns on them, like they were getting you know, maybe together, you know. Um, I mean that seems more like again, it seems more likely than like, you know, a wood knock per se. But it's just kind of the generic term. That's at least that's my opinion.

54:07 And again, like I'm wildly speculating too, I'm just as guilty of it, you know. Like, but that's kind of when I approach this sort of thing, and when I hear stories, you know, I try to approach it from like un naturalists standpoint. That's kind of the like, you know, I kind of joke like I'm the big foot naturalist. That's kind of like one of my instrum, you know, like my Instagram bio has the big Foot naturalists in it because it's like, well, I'm doing this, but I'm I'm I'm doing education and I'm not so much like and I'm trying to approach this from like a naturalist standpoint, you know. So when I hear these stories, I'm like, man, why would it be behaving like this? You know what I mean? Is there a precedence out in nature for something like this? You know? I shine it is kind of one of those weird things people. I just I just got an alleged picture and it's kind of like, I'm sure you see a fair number of shadowy blobs outlined in red on somebody's phone, right, I'm sure, I'm sure you see a fair number of them. Yeah. Um, this is kind of a shadowy blob with two keeps. I love them too. I love them too. No, I'm not bashing them. I'm just saying, like, you know, I'm sure you see you know, um, and yeah I love them too. Like it's yeah, it's great, it's you know, and it kind it kind of moves the narrative forward to you know what I mean, Like the whole it's what drives this whole subject matter. You know. Um, so, yeah, I keep keep back shadowy blobs, but you know it's a shadowy blob with two pinpricks of light, you know

55:38 what I mean. And it's uh, I've always struggled with the eyeshine thing because there aren't there aren't uh like, there aren't great apes with a tapetum, you know, a teed um loose them at the back of their eye, the tissue at the back of their eye, you know what I mean. And it's like, well, it doesn't mean there can it couldn't be an example of like evolutionary convergence where two things evolved separately. I mean, wings are good, eyes, for example, have evolved like the eye. The structure of the eye has evolved separately multiple times throughout the history of life, you know. So you know, it's not to say that there couldn't be there couldn't be an evolutionary precedence for it, where it's like evolutionary convergence where they evolved to feed them separately from everything else, you know what I mean. It's not to say that that that's not the case. But I've always struggled with the eye shine also, you know, because the animals climb trees, So raccoon can be eight feet off the ground and has eyeshine, you know what I mean. So I like or a barred owl landing in a tree, you know, landing in a branch that's seven or eight feet off the ground. You shine your light on it, and you get these two pin pricks that are eight feet off the ground, you know what I mean, Like you get the two glowing eyes that are eight feet off the ground, you know. Um, So, you know, I don't know.

57:01 I've always struggled with the the eyeshine thing. But I'm not gonna like dismiss it because we don't know, you know what I mean, Like, we don't know for sure, so I'm not going to just dismiss it completely. John uh yeah, So thank you, thank you so much for sharing some stories from Salt Fork, very very cool stuff at monster Fest. You you were sharing with me that story about the weird like horse. Yeah the horse got yeah, yeah, attacked And we might talk about that after the show for the for the Patreon side of things. But um, but thank you so much for coming on. How How can people keep up to date with you know, what, what's going on in the world as Salt Fork and uh John and all that good stuff. Um, as far as Salt Fork goes, if you just if you like the Salt Fork Facebook page, that's usually the most up to date thing. UM that's probably the easiest is just look for Salt Fork State Park on Facebook. M as far as I go, if you you can follow my Instagram, it's a hick and Bottom John on Instagram. If you follow it, I mean I post occasionally post things about Bigfoot, but mostly I post some critters and stuff that I find.

58:17 UM, but it's a good way. It's a nice way to keep in contact with people. I do like. I like Instagram a lot for keeping in contact with people. So it's Hick and Bottom John at Instagram. It's the big Foot Naturalist and you can see all of our all of our adventures here and some of the stuff that I'm working on. I'm hoping, I'm hoping things are kind of like it's summer, so things are kind of crazy, But things kind of in my personal life right now are slowing down. Like I was actually working a second job for a little while and things were kind of hectic and I didn't get quite as much as much done as I as I wanted to, you know, but now things are kind of slowing down. Like I'm it's summer and the kids are home, and I'm like, things are you know, things are hectic at the part, but things are kind of slowing down here, and I'm hoping I'm hoping to actually eventually do some writing. I'd kind of like to put together, like, you know, uh, something like the Bigfoot Naturalists Field Manual, something like that, you know what I mean, not just to do Bigfoot research stuff, but something to like to be a naturalist and how to do this sort of thing out in the field, you know what I mean, and how to approach this from a naturalist point of view. Um So, I'm trying to like, I'm hoping to do a little bit of writing eventually, and that'll all be Instagram stuff, you know, good good Instagram fodder there once I get the ball rolling on anything like that. Um So, yeah, I mean, lots of excying things. We're building a new nature center at Salt Work. It should be completed in twenty twenty four, and uh, Bigfoot's going to be a central theme in it. We're actually having having a

59:51 We're having a real life size Bigfoot. The same, the same special effects artist bow Bruns that did the life size Bigfoot on in Clips Museum is uh like inclip really music he's doing he's doing one for us. Yeah, so that's going to be pretty cool. Yeah. Oh wow, that'll be really cool. Yeah, so that is really cool, man, it should be cool. Yeah. So lots of stuff happening. It's all exciting, awesome. Well, John, thank you so much for coming on again. And if you go to a big Foot conference you may just be lucky enough to see John in person. Just look for the amazing mostache. But so good chatting with you, dude. It's a good chatting with you two. Thanks for having me on. Before we go, just want to say thank you to all the new listeners that have joined Bigfoot Society over the last few weeks on our podcast platforms and on YouTube. You guys are incredible. Things are exploding. Just over the last month, I've gone from fifteen percent to thirty nine percent on the way to becoming a full time Bigfoot podcast. I appreciate you guys so much. It really makes a difference when you listen to the podcast weekly. Make sure you're subscribed and share this episode with a friend.

1:01:08 And also an online Bigfoot Facebook group or any other groups that you're in. Thank you so much here at Bigfoot Society. Article is to provide a platform for those that have encountered Bigfoot to share their encounter in a safe and respected environment. But we need to hear your story. If you've experienced something that you just can't explain, please send me an email at Bigfoot Society at gmail dot com. Then we can start the conversation. I know a lot of you have not shared your encounter at all. It's been twenty years and it's time that you get this off your chest and then you can get some well deserved for rest because I know you haven't been sleeping. I understand what you're going through, and I appreciate every one of you listening. We hope to see you back next week for another episode of the Bigfoot Society podcast.