The Abominable Snowman of California: A Conversation with Dustin Severs

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Either you're listening to the Big Fat
Society podcast and I'm Jeremiah Bron. Every

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week I talk to individuals who have
experienced Sasquatch in some way or another,

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YouTube channel member. Links to those are

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in the show notes in Bigfoot Society, I've taken far too much of your

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time so far, so let's get
on with the show, all right,

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Big Society. We got the privilege
of talking with mister Dustin Severs. He

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is the author of a book that
everyone should be well aware of. I'm

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going to talk about it for a
few minutes right off the bat, The

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Abominable snow oh Man of California.
And if you're watching YouTube, I want

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you to see how thick this is. It is almost five hundred pages,

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and wow, Dustin, it is
such an incredible read. I want to

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say, first, hats off to
you, it took you multiple years to

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write this, correct, That's correct. So actually I started. It's easy

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for me to remember. So I
started writing it around the time of the

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fiftieth anniversary for the Patterson Gamblin film, which was October of twenty seventeen,

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and I just launched a book on
October twenty eighth, so it's been almost

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exactly six years. But actually I
wrote I wrote a book in two thirds

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because I had originally set out to
write a book about the Patterson Gimblin film,

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and I did that for a couple
of years, and after a while

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it became obvious this is way too
massive the book, so I say,

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hey, I could easily break this
up into I wanted to cover the period

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from fifty eight to seventy nine,
so I'll just is down in the middle,

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have a pre PG film book and
a post for PG film book.

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So I'm saying I'm about sixty five
seven percent done with the second book,

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which I'm hoping to launch on October
twentieth, twenty twenty four. It's almost

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like multiple books in one. One
way I can explain it is so I

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talk a lot with people like Teharonomus, Jonathan Easley, Ron Man, Reid,

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Alex Petakov. People have a lot
of knowledge about the history, especially

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Tate. He's got a lot of
history about how things align. And I've

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always thought, I was like,
man, it would be great if there

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was just a place where all this
stuff was, because there hadn't been a

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go to book where it's just all
laid out the history and you don't have

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to keep texting Daniel Perez and and
hopefully answer some random question you have.

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Man, you lay it all out
about all the crazy stuff that happened leading

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up to the Patterson Gimlin recording on
October twenty sixties. And but it's way

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before that. It's back in the
late fifties, and you're talking about Renee

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to Hindon and John Green and Bob
Titmas and it's just it's wild. And

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I'm not a super bigfoot scholar,
but just to see it all laid out,

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the creative nonfiction that goes back.
Probably the person made it famous,

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Truman Capoti, when he wrote his
book in Cold Blood in the early sixties.

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He did it much more than I
did, I say, And for

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those who don't understand literary nonfictions,
yeah, it does require the author to

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fill in gaps. They basically use
techniques associate with novels, like dialogue and

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scenes, inner monologue. So I
say the book is probably it's really probably

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eighty five percent just traditional nonfiction,
mix in a little bit of literary nonfiction

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scenes and dialogue, and yeah,
I do like to tell the scenes through

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the perspective of one particular person,
and yes I did. But I went

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through tremendous pains of the as acrid
as possible, So I knew from the

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get go. I was like a
lot of people were going to love this

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literary nonfiction stuff. There's all the
other people say, I liked the book,

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I just wish you didn't do this
fake fictional dialogue, and yeah,

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it is fictional, but actually almost
everything people. For example, there's a

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scene where I even Sanderson as two
colleagues are driving the station wagon debate.

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So I'm not I didn't want to
write an analytical book looking at whether or

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not Bigfoot or the bottomost snowmallers reality, but I knew that I had to

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touch on that subject, so I
did it through dialogue between two characters,

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and almost every thing that Ivan T. Sanderson says in that chapter or things

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he actually said in real life.
So I've read so I've got so many

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Island t Sanders and books and interviews, and I just compiled this huge list

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and then I just made basically make
an argument out of it. And that's

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how I've done almost all the scenes
in the book. There's a chapter where

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al Hodgin's having a conversation with Don
Abbott, and Al Austin actually said all

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those things that he's credited. I
took tremendous pains to be as accurate as

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possible in the literary nonfiction scenes.
Peter Burns in there that you have Jerry

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Crew and I had no idea how
he lost his wife tragically and his background

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in Christianity was that from actual interviews
that you read. Yeah, that's all

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absolutely true. Yeah, he was
a bit of a religious fundamentalist. He

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was a believer in big Foot.
He was adamant that he didn't believe in

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evolution as a creationist, so he
was adamant that they foult existed. I

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think there's a monologuere he said,
if these things exist, no one must

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have had him on the arc.
It sounds a little cheesy, but he

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actually said that that's why I used
it. Did he really? He actually

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said that in an interview. There's
also the scene where back and forth with

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Jimmy Stewart and I was like,
man, you're hitting all the great and

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stuff, Jeremia. What makes any
story great and interesting, be it a

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movie, a book, a play, is great characters. The story of

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the Bigfoot Legend has just an amazing
cast of characters, some wacky, colorful

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guys. And as a writer was
so fun so research and write about these

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guys, and you can ask y
better characters to have to write about them,

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guys like Renee to Hindon, Ivan
T. Sanderson, Ray Wallace,

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and then I've always found Green into
Hendon's relationship so hysterical because the classic straight

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guy, wise guy duo comedy duo
like from the Yeah, and my favorite

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Lanky and Crank, And that's I
credit Todd Prescott. He's on when he

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came up with that, and I
love it. So I told him right

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wildly, I'm going to use that
in the book. Is that okay?

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Yeah, sure, yeah, I
use that throughout the book. And yeah,

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they're probably my two favorite. I
say that. That's why I focus

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on the boat most is Green and
Hindon and the same in the second book,

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it's mostly about Hindon and Green because
it gets really interesting Green and to

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Hendon's relationship in the nineteen seventies.
Yeah, it's amazing cast of characters,

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and Green and in are my Family, we talked about the most famous duo

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and Bigfoot history. Of course,
people think of Roger Patterson and both the

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Emlin brothers who really know the history. They know the Ogs or Renee to

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Hendon and John Green. Undoubtedly.
Was there a character that you found hardest

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to write from the perspective of Yeah, I think we have a really interesting

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character. To want to really explain
to the reader what they're all about.

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Is best to write from the perspective
somebody else. For example, I have

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when I write about the scene with
Ivan T. Sanderson is told from the

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perspective of Robert Christie, who was
a pat who was an actual person who

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who traveled with him in that nineteen
fifty nine trip for Random House when he

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was prepared for his book. Is
when he introduced Sanderson to Bigfoot. And

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I can't stress enough how important a
figure Ivan T. Sanderson is in Bigfoot

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history. So, yeah, they're
all fun. I wanted to write from

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everybody's perspective. I try to get
everybody, and yeah, I think I

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pretty much hit everything. There's probably
some people I didn't write from their perspective,

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but it's always fun to mix it
up. Hats off for figuring out

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how to pay homage to Renee the
Hinden's way of talking in a fantastic way.

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It just because I'm sure people going
into this, like I've watched the

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videos on Todd Prescott's channel Sasquatch Archives. It does not pull any punches,

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but there's a scene that through me
for a loop is it's so intense and

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I would love to know your thoughts
behind the scene. It's the shotgun scene.

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And the great thing about this book
is you go in the back and

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there's just a list for every chapter, like I got this part from this

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interview or from this and this,
and I'm just curious the ideas for the

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shotgun scene. Where did that come
from? And also what liberties did you

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take, if any, in that
scene itself? Sure, yeah, that

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is a great scene, so it's
absolutely true. First off, so I

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got that story from two separate people. I got from Keith Kyozari, who

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was the South African. He was
a pilot, so he was physically there

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when it happened. And then the
stort was crobbery by Thomas Steinberg. I

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spoke to Keith Kyazzari over the phone, great guy, doing well, and

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he told he reluctantly told me about
it. He mentioned oh, and then

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I was like, well what happened? And he was hesitant to tell me.

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He told me the story. So
after that I messaged Thomas Steinberg.

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I was like, Thomas, have
you ever heard this story? In Thomas

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chuckle? And He's like, yeah, John Green told me the story before

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he died, and John Green said
he would never repeat the story until after

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Renee died. So it was yeah, the story was told by two people

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were physically there when it happened.
As far as liberties, all I know

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is this Keith Kyzzari, and neither
Keith Kyazzari or a John Green knew these

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specifics. All I know is it
was extremely hot day and somehow Renee got

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stuck for hours, if not the
entire day stranded. And then when they

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return, he was apple plectic and
Green went up to him and he pointed

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shotgun at him, threaten to kill
him. It is so intense and there

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The whole book would make a great
movie, or maybe even a few movies

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really, but that scene. Who
man, Yeah, I know I'm the

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first person to write it about.
I believe Thomas has spoken about it on

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the podcast in the past. They
had several risks throughout their life, so

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I think their falling out was at
the Pacific Northwest Expedition, and then they

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always came back and then that was
obviously a big one. They actually got

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back together after that, so it
wasn't really the straw that broke the Campbell's

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back was in the early seventies is
when John green was able to sell his

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newspaper, The Agacy Advance, and
was able to make a living full time

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off of writing. And the safe
to say that that Rene was just really

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jealous. He had no fallback.
He lived only for the Sasquatch, so

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when he saw Green having success off, I think he had a lot of

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envy. And then the way John
Greene tells the story is that when he

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started, John started sharing some of
his research, specifically pictures that when they

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had captured himself. That was the
final straw the country to popularly, they

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didn't have a complete flying the band
broke up. After that, they no

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longer collaborated together, but for your
till the day to Hinton died, they

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continued to correspond through letters, through
phone calls. They were together occasionally only

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Thomas Stein person. He's recalled several
times where he had like dinner with him.

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In the nineteen nineties, they didn't
work with each other anymore and unfortunately

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did get really nasty. I have
all I have scores of not hundreds of

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letters from the nineteen fifties to the
late nineteen nineties between the Hendon Green and

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girlver Krantz and other people, and
it got pretty nasty. It's exactly a

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John Green was such a nice guy
and oh he totally yeah. Yeah.

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They're all flaw characters in the book. And I think one exception is probably

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John Green. He's really a foultful, intelligent, honest person and honestly renee

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for all his faults, and he
was he was, no doubt like a

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ruthless sob, but he was nothing
if not honest. He's always an honest

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person. He never he never claimed
to see from his whole life in my

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ass, have you ever seen a
sasquats? No, have you ever had

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any experiences. No, So he
was a very honest guy. He's honest.

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He's also a big jerk, but
he's honest. Like he's one of

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those guys. I was like,
maybe there'll be some redeeming. I think

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he has a lot of I think
everybody knows mine in their life. Who

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the guy. He's a the person
is a total asshole, but he's a

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good guy deep and deep down inside, and you like him for all his

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faults. So yeah, he's just
a very extremely flawed person. Yeah,

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your book is great in showing that
there were some really strong personalities and a

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lot of people just really did not
like each other. And it's incredible that

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the whole thing just didn't fall apart
early on more than I guess it did

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in some ways. Have you ever
been to that area out there yourself?

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Justin Oh? Yeah, So I
live in southern Oregon. It's about ten

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miles north of the California border.
And I actually my house where I'm sitting

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right now is actually sits on the
foothills of the Klama Siscu Mountains, which

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is the same mountain where Angel which
Bluff Creek is located. So it's about

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seventy miles as the crowd flies from
where I live. It takes about three

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and a half hours to go out
there. Yeah, I've been going out

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there for seven years now, at
least a few times a year. Yes,

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I know the area. I feel
like it's very important. You want

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to write about something, you really
need to know the lay of the land

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yourself. So yeah, I go
up there. I worked at Bluff Creek

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Project guys. Okay, Yeah,
so that's how I know Tate and all

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those other guys. Jonathan, they
come out there every somewhere aways ever summer

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can We typically go out there every
October, but we lose a fire this

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year and then I felt, I'm
not sure what happened the last two octobers,

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I have not been out there,
and I always loved going out there

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around October twentieth. So you've been
involved with different Bigfoot research parties. It

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sounds like, have you ever had
any interesting things happen when you've been out

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there? I've ever heard anything,
seeing anything, things of that nature.

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I have not. Yeah, I'm
a skeptic, but I'm not an evangelical

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skeptic. I'm not Greg Long when
I wrote the book, and wasn't my

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intent to dissuade anybody either way.
I really want the book to be liked

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by skeptics and believers alike, So
that was my intent. Despite being a

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skeptic, I still have this tremendous
romance and love for the for Bigfoots.

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Every time I go up to Bluff
Creek, I'm always when I turn it

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off Highway ninety six and start going
up to Go Road or Bluff Creek Road,

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always have flies in my stomach.
I'm always looking around. I'm usually

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at my big Foot playlist going in
my vehicle. So yeah, I love

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the legend. There was a part
that the big Foot history I've never I

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guess I've knew a little bit about
it, but the Blue Creek Mountain that

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was just fascinating sat in an area
that you've actually have you ever been to

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that area? No? Yeah,
absolutely, so it's actually, yeah,

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the Blue Creek is just the adjacent
watershed the Bluff Creek. It's basically the

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same locations where they found the tracks
in the summer of sixty seven, just

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a few miles from where the PG
film side is and also where Jerry Krew

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made his first plaster cast. That's
an amazing thing. About Bluff Creek is

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the holy of holies when it comes
to big That's where it all started.

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An amazing thing was all the most
historic places like Laos Camp, the PG

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film side, Blue Creek Mountains,
all within a few mile ratis of each

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other's. If you ever drive up
there, you're pretty much Once you get

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there, you're close to all the
great historic spots. It's not easy place

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to get to though, it's pretty
rugged. So yeah, because in that

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Blue Creek Mountain area, like they
said, there were like hundreds and hundreds

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of tracks that we're seeing, correct, Yeah, I believe there's thousands of

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them. Yeah, So yeah,
and so yeah. So I say the

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book is there's three similar events that
I cover in the book, And in

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part one I cover the fall,
that classic fall of nineteen fifty eight and

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Humboldt County. Part three I cover
the sliced expeditions which go from the fall

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of fifty nine to the fall of
nineteen sixty two. Then chapter or excuse

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me a section four I cover the
Big Year, as renade to Hinton referred

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to as, which is nineteen sixty
seven. So you say nineteen sixty seven,

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you'll automatically think of the Patterson again
one film. Of course, that's

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what everything culminated to that moment.
So there's some amazing events that occurred that

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year before that, and the big
one being the Blue Creek Mountain tracks,

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which were actually the tracks that Roger
Patterson heard about which got him to get

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Bob Gamlin and him to go to
Bluff Creek later that fall. Has there

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ever been like a focus on the
Blue Creek Mountain area, because I know

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it's right next to the film site, but it feels like it's being overlooked.

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And if there was an area where
there was thousands of bigfoot foot tracks

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at one point, you think we
would be looking a little bit, just

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a little bit into that area.
But I'm I don't know. It's yeah,

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No, it's one of the seminal
events. And I don't think it

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Riithers ever really wrote about it.
John Green wrote about it his books.

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He doesn't go in tremendous detail of
John Green, great guy. Is his

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writings about as dry as his speech
was. Yeah, it's great information as

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a book, but they're certainly not
page turners. But yeah, a lot

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of able information his books. But
yeah, it was. It was a

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seminal moment in Bigfoot history, and
that's what again, that's what prompted Roger

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Patterson to come to come to Bluff
Creek with Bob Gimlin later that fall,

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and of course that's where the so
the book cover is the what I like

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to refer to as the classic period
of Bigfoot history. So that's the fall

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of nineteen fifty eight to the fall
of sixty seven, the significance of the

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fall of nineteen fifty eight pns.
That's when bigfoot, it was the origin,

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the genesis a bigfoot from as understood
in American popular culture. I have

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to underscore that because it thin people
who are true blue believers. Obviously,

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if Bigfoot is indeed a flesh and
blood animal, it's been around for thousands,

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not millions of years. But my
book focuses on the history of Bigfoot

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in the American popular culture. So
from that standpoint, Bigfoot absolutely started.

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On October fifth, nineteen fifty eight, when Andrew Gonzoli, was the regional

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editor for The Humble Times, wrote
an article about Jerry krew and has had

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a picture of this plaster cast footprint, and he coined, this is a

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little controversial, but he was the
first to coin the name Bigfoot. There

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was precursors, but as I write
in the book, for all intents and

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purposes, that marked the genesis of
Bigfoot. Of course nineteen the significance of

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nineteen sixty seven being the Patterson Gamblin
film which changed everything. Patterson Patterson film

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is the essentral story when it comes
to the big Foot legends. It was

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really a paradigm shift, I say, in three three ways with the Patterson

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Gamblin film. The symbolism of the
Bigfoot legend transition from being these giant,

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inexplicable tracks in the earth to this
shocking footage capture on code of chrome color

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and the crown jewel of evidence went
from these plaster gas footprints to the film

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itself. In the face of the
legend, went from Jerry CRU's picture to

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Patty doing his famous frame three fifty
two strut. Another way it changes,

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how is the general public's conception of
what Bigfoot was. During the classic period

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from fifty seven to sixty eight,
Bigfoot was largely considered the eight wild man

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as opposed to a giant ape,
as John Green had long argued, specifically

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in British Columbia of the Sasquies.
They were considered to be a band of

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an Indian tribe, essentially giant human
beings with long hair on their head.

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And it's a little different in Bluff
Creek in northern California, but they essentially

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believe Bigfoot was a wildman as well. With that all change with the patters

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In film, Patty is just what
John Green had argued before, that is

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essentially this giant gorilla on human leg
So this to this day, when people

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think of Bigfoot, they think of
this giant gorilla and not a wildman.

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And I say the third big change
with the Patterson Gamlin film, it's just

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the popularity of the legend. So
when when Ivan Sanderson published this article and

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Argus the magazine in nineteen fifty eight
was the first which they published the photos

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from the Patterson Gamblin film, I
say the Bigfoot legend was still somewhat local.

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I say, the vast majority of
Americans have never heard of Bigfoot.

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Now you fast forward to January nineteen
eighty one, when Ronald Reagan takes the

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oath of office, it's the household
name. The entire country knows what Bigfoot

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was. Because in the nineteen seventies
was the decade for Bigfoot at fifty seven.

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Fifty eight to sixty seven was the
classic period. Sixty seven to seventy

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nine was the golden age, and
that's when he had all That's when you

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start having all these great, cheesy
yet awesome documentaries, the Hollywood movies,

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the books, And that's why I
dedicated the book to Gen X. So

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that was the generation that grew up
in the seventies and eighties, and that's

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why they his Bigfoot is particularly special
to that Gen X generation. I was

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born in seventy nine, so I
was at the end of the gen exit.

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I didn't grow I wasn't a kid
in the seventies, a kid in

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the eighties, by still saw all
those great documentaries and movies, so I

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can totally relate. I always say
that Bob Gimlin. So for almost thirty

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years, Bob Gemlin's was a recluse. He wouldn't talk about the Bigfoot legend

300
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or the film because he was pretty
cool by his peers. Then in two

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thousand and three, he reluctantly agreed
to attend the Bigfoot the International Bigfoot Symposium

302
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in Willow Creek, which was ran
by Al Hodgson and John Green to people

303
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he really trusted. So he came
in there. He came to the event

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and he spoke. He spoke yeah, and he was shocked and the ovation

305
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he received was like a rock star
And he may have wondered, what changed.

306
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I can tell you exactly what change
all those kids that from the nineteen

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seventies they grew up watching all this
stuff on all these films about Bigfoot.

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We're now the adults run in the
world. Yeah, so The Night.

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So that's the second book I'm working
on that. It really focused on the

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PG film and its aftermath and how
it just absolutely blew up in the nineteen

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seventies. So again, I can't
stress the significance of that decade, to

312
00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.359
me is the best decade when it
comes to Bigfoot. And it's all credited

313
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to the Patterson Gamblin film. That
was the absolutely that was a catalyst that

314
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got everything going. Do you have
a favorite documentary that you remember watching?

315
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.880
Yeah, like old ones? Yeah, I do. One of the older

316
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ones. Yeah, I can't.
I get the names mixed up. Some

317
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are better than other others. As
far as recent ones, I really like

318
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the Sasquatch Odyssey. We're just some
of it in my book as one inspirations

319
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:51.079
for the book. But yeah,
I love all those. Lennard Neimoy in

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Search of and author C. Clark
had some I love. I love all

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the documentaries too. There's one in
particular, one documentary that particular, I

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00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.480
heap your names mixed up and people
just don't understand that that back in the

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nineteen seventies is obviously before the internet. It is also before cable television.

324
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You would have these documentaries on network
television. This is a time where if

325
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either had a slot on primetime network
television, they would get thirty forty fifty

326
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million people watching it. It's very
different from today. And the Patterson Gamblin

327
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film was showed repeatedly in documentaries throughout
the nineteen seventies, which is the reason

328
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that it eventually guarded that reputation as
being the second most watched amateur film and

329
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history, second only to the Zapruter
film. I don't think the Zapruiter film

330
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was released like seventy five or seventy
six, But yeah, all about the

331
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nineteen seventies is a fascinating topic.
But yeah, my book focuses on that

332
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period before the Patterson gamblin film fifty
seventies to fifty eight to sixty seven,

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which was all about giant tracks as
opposed to the film. What are your

334
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.799
thoughts on on Ray Wall. How
do you view him as an individual,

335
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:06.359
because he is a large part of
this book at the beginning and at the

336
00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:10.079
end of it. Yeah, sure
so, I actually really as the more

337
00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:12.960
research I did on the guy,
I really came to really like the guy.

338
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.400
He was a bat shit crazy,
but he was a functional He was

339
00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:21.720
a functional nut. He was actually
quite successful in his career. He ran

340
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several businesses, He had a family, He was a loving father, somewhat

341
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.240
of a pillar in the community,
although everybody knew he was a little lumni.

342
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:37.480
Between his Bigfoot exploits to his astronomical
work with flying saucers, that was

343
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.119
interesting. Yeah, I really know. I don't believe that he's responsible for

344
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all the tracks were up there.
I would say my guess was perhaps he

345
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was the main culprit. But my
guess is several people were faking tracks up

346
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.440
there, but maybe not. So
I tried to give it a fair shake.

347
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It wasn't to the last chapter of
the book that really looking to the

348
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:07.920
legitimacy of the Crew tracks and the
Blue the Double Ball tracks kept this distinguished

349
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.119
between those two. So I'll do
that real quick. So the Double Ball

350
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.480
tracks had a that's a term that
John Green used to describe him. Some

351
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:19.240
people all this split Ball basically had
this hour glass shaped to it. Is

352
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:26.759
a very unique track, and those
by far the most prevalent tracks found up

353
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:33.359
and Bluff Creek throughout this classic period. But the interesting thing was is that

354
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.680
the Crew track, the original tracks
he helped they held up the cast he

355
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:42.880
held up on the October fifth,
nineteen fifty eight is actually a different kind

356
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.519
of tracks. So when Ray Wallace
died in two thousand and two, his

357
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:52.680
family went to the newspapers and this
went viral and he said he our father

358
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.960
was big foot, and they had
proof. So they showed this whole trove

359
00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:00.759
of stompers I call him in the
book. Basically, they're like snowshotes,

360
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:06.799
wooden shoes. He can strap on
the boots like snowkles chomping about, and

361
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:12.079
they are actually so that some of
the stoppers have were absolutely identical to the

362
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:17.039
Double Ball tracks. And there's also
a set of tracks that rich are a

363
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:25.440
dead ringer for the original track that
Jerry Crew made a plaster cast of However,

364
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:29.400
John Green makes a counter argument to
this, So the Blue Creek,

365
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.759
So I keep saying the Blue Creek
Mountain. The double Ball tracks were first

366
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.559
found by Bob Tipmans in November nineteen
fifty eight, and around that time he

367
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:42.720
and Jerry Crew, who were childhood
friends, made replica copies of the plaster

368
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:45.799
cast and were selling them. So
they were all over the place in the

369
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:51.640
nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. So
John Green argues that yeah, they are

370
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.359
his Stompers are dead Ringers. He
simply took those replicas and used as a

371
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.880
template to make it Stompers. So
the chick the a argument. So I

372
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:07.039
try to give a I try to
give both sides and even shake in that

373
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last chapter, and it's a legitimate
argument that John Green makes. One of

374
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:17.480
the coolest parts of the book.
I love it are the drawn maps at

375
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:21.720
the beginning. What's the story behind
those maps? Because they are fantastic.

376
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.240
I know. I'll tell you this
story about a guy named William Salivan.

377
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.920
You probably I have an entire shelfle
of his books. He does hiking Oregon

378
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:34.720
hiking books, and he's been doing
it for probably twenty thirty years, and

379
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:40.319
they're extremely popular. He constantly comes
out of new editions and I have always

380
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:44.480
been absolutely in love of his maps. I think they're so cool. But

381
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:47.119
when I knew I want to make
maps, email this guy and I said,

382
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.400
hey, I'm a huge fan.
All I have an entire shell full

383
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.039
of your hiking books on a trail
runner, so I use his books all

384
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.079
the time. Ago the thing I
like love the most is your maps are

385
00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.000
so great. And he's a local
historian to history books, and this is

386
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.519
somewhat local history, as Buffbridge is
seventy miles from here, and I asked,

387
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:07.839
I, would you be willing to
make the mass mark books and he

388
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:10.920
said he'd never done before, but
he'd be happy to do it. So

389
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:12.960
Yeah, I was absolutely thrilled to
have his mass I'm glad you say that

390
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:17.759
because I love the books the maps
too. I think there's fun. That's

391
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.160
what I like about the most.
There's they really think I would get the

392
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:27.000
reader excited to really dive into the
book. I've heard these places over the

393
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:33.720
last few years from people like Tate
and Jonathan, Alex and Ron and all

394
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.079
those guys, and it's cool because
these maps they lay it all out.

395
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:42.119
Oh, it's all this stuff is
right here. And there's a one that's

396
00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:48.079
more detailed of the area around the
film site in Laos Camp. There's also

397
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.319
one that's a little bit wider out
of the northern California area, and it's

398
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:57.319
you're not going to You can't just
find maps like that anywhere else, like

399
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:02.279
you have to have them in a
very space civic resource. This book that

400
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:08.200
you've written, So taking a few
years in a project like this, were

401
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:14.960
there any parts of it where you're
writing it but you're finding out new stuff?

402
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.279
The story is changing as I'm writing
it because I'm starting to find this

403
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.960
new evidence. And were there any
parts that this story just seemed to have

404
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:25.720
a life of its own while you
were trying to put it on paper.

405
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:27.559
Yeah. Absolutely. So they always
say that you don't have to be an

406
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:30.920
expert on the subject matter when you
start a book on when you finish it.

407
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.680
So that was certainly the case for
me. A lot of stuff I

408
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.759
was learning as I went, and
I thought, I've learned more stuff and

409
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.759
I have to go back. Yeah. I spent six years just obsessively going

410
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:48.920
through newspaper archives, and that's when
advantage of writers today have over those from

411
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:53.319
just ten years ago. Is we
have this amazing resource where all these newspapers

412
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:59.119
are digitized now that now the Humble
Times and Humble Standard have not been digitized.

413
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:00.319
So I actually had to go old
school. I had to drive the

414
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:05.480
Humble State Universe and go through the
micro film and that took a lot of

415
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.480
work. So I was able to
get all that stuff uncomforted. A lot

416
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:13.200
of stuff has never been uncovered before. I think I was the first person

417
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:16.880
to really write about the British Columbia
expedition, so I was able to find

418
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:23.799
a troll of letters between Bob Tipmus
and Tom Slick. And yeah, it

419
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:28.599
was really fun. Probably doing the
research is a fun part. When you

420
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.400
had to sit down and write,
that's when it gets really hard. But

421
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:37.440
yeah, it was a blast in
the research. And yeah, I had

422
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:38.759
no clue that when I started the
book I was going to take me like

423
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:43.880
two years. I had no clue
the rabbit hole I was already entered down.

424
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:46.759
And it was my goal, and
it was a lofty goal. I

425
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:52.480
mean, I wanted to write the
most comprehensive book I've written about bigfoot history.

426
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.359
Because when I got into this subject, when I moved here in the

427
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:59.160
spring of twenty sixteen. I was
shot. There wasn't much out there.

428
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:04.519
There's been a couple people who have
written books about the major personalities in the

429
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.000
in this classic Pyradids, it's just
very on the surface. They don't do

430
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:10.119
a deep dive. So I thought, why would be amazing you have this

431
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:16.559
historical writer with somebody like David Grant
or Eric Larson or John Krackhauer, which

432
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:21.839
really what took take on this subject
and spend a couple of years researching and

433
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:24.279
writing it. They all give it
a try. I always loved books.

434
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:30.039
I love history, I particularly love
origin stories. I love anytime there's something

435
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:34.279
that I'm interested. I'm always asking
us how did this start? Particularly,

436
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:39.640
we had these subjects where everybody's generally
familiar with they don't really know the really

437
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:44.559
the true story, the facts from
the fictions. So that's what that was

438
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.240
the goal I set out in writing
this one, and the being very ambitious

439
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:54.920
undertaking. But somehow I finished it. How did you find the tipmus letters?

440
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:00.240
Where were those out? They're in
University of Texas at San Antonio is

441
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:07.319
Tom Slick donated his collection there and
it's a massive collection. Fortunately, a

442
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:10.119
lot of lot of the main characters
have the collections. Ivan T. Sanderson

443
00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:15.880
has a massive collection which is held
in Philadelphia, against Slicks is in San

444
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:20.840
Antonio. John Green's is the right
out side of Harrison Hot Springs, and

445
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:25.800
then Bob Tipmos and I'll hatch them
have their collection at the Willow Creek Museum.

446
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.840
Probably miss forget some other people as
well. So yeah, there's some

447
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.320
great resources out there. So that's
a China Flats museum. Correct, Okay,

448
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.360
what's in the Bob Titmus collection.
They have display where they show the

449
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:43.760
cast and stuff. All the letters
and stuff are actually upstairs and not open

450
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.400
to the public. So I'd ask
the curator if I could go through,

451
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:51.079
and she happily agreed to let me
do so. I was not shot at

452
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:53.039
what I how much cool stuff there
was. And there like the letter that

453
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:59.639
I'd always heard that in the fall
of fifty eight that Bob Titmus in a

454
00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:04.119
letter to Green tell him to come
up about because that's when he first discovered

455
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.079
the double ball tracks. I didn't
know that letter actually existed. It was

456
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:13.119
actually in the file. I found
some stuff and some that's pretty pretty surprising.

457
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.000
I can't talk about Yeah, I
was like wow there for a while,

458
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:22.039
I've always closed to find Outward Patterson
process the film. I got really

459
00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:27.280
excited. Ivan Sanderson is the best
great letters. He's such an interesting guy.

460
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:30.840
And John Green on his entire life, he made copies of every single

461
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:36.800
letter he ever wrose, which is
so fortunate we have all that stuff to

462
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:44.480
review. Talking about Bob Tipmis,
do you think he was faking evidence store

463
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:47.519
or what? Do you your thoughts
on that. I don't know there's any

464
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:53.320
evidence that he faked tracks. Based
on my impression I got Bob Tiittmus from

465
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:58.639
his letter. He seems like a
very, very thoughtful, intelligent guy,

466
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:02.280
and he seemed like a serious guy. I know that Evan Sanderson really didn't

467
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:07.599
trust him, Andrew Gonzilli didn't trust
him, and of course, of of

468
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:13.119
course Peter burn and renade and despised
him. I in my opinion, he's

469
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:17.199
the most overlooked figure in Bigfoot history, mostly because he's never He never talked,

470
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:22.039
you make any movies in it,
writing books, He rarely did an

471
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.239
interview. He did he did an
interview with the International Cryptosiology Society. I

472
00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:30.039
mean said that wrong in the mid
nineties, which is gold and I believe

473
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.599
Daniel Perez did an interview him in
the nineties as well. There's almost nothing

474
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.280
out there when he comes to Bob
tipmos And in my opinion, the Mount

475
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:45.079
rushmore of Bigfoot researchers is Green,
the hindon, Peter Burn and Bob tipmos

476
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:51.239
So, and that in the Sasquatch
Odyssey documentary, which is a wonderful documentary,

477
00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:53.320
they had the four Horsemen, they
have the Green to Hint and Burn,

478
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:58.800
and they have Grover krans and Grover
Krantz is Yeah, he's certainly a

479
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:02.920
significant figure. But yeah, I
think the I think Tim's left out simply

480
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:07.440
to the fact there's no there's hardly
any film or interviews or anything out the

481
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:10.760
guy. Well, yeah, I
think he's overlooked. I think Jim McLaren

482
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.559
is another guy who's really overlooked when
it comes to Bigfoot history. And Jim

483
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:21.840
claarreen is still alive and well he
is got intelligent guy. Mm hmm,

484
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:27.800
yeah, fascinating guy, very intelligent
person. I love how you you have

485
00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:31.480
that the scene in the book where
it's like there's a lot of stuff in

486
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:36.199
the book where if you're like a
Bigfoot nerd, you're Oh my goodness,

487
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:39.960
that's it has Jim like like,
oh my, the old my statue hasn't

488
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.519
been carved yet, and it's just
it's very almost back to the future in

489
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:50.920
a way when you're reading the story
the book, because you know where it's

490
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:57.199
going. But it's very cool for
sure. Is there a part in here

491
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:01.559
where you're you're a little bit you're
not sure how it might be taken by

492
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:07.480
the community or any that you think
might be more controversial than others the way

493
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:12.320
you interpreted it, Yeah, I
try to. I try to keep some

494
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.840
of the neutral tone. I think
I was successful most of the time.

495
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:20.760
But yeah, I think it probably
came out that was perhaps in the end

496
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:23.480
of the introduction and probably literally the
last page and a half is the only

497
00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:28.280
time I really get really explicit on
my own personal views. But like I

498
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.800
said, I really want to go
on my way to to write the book

499
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:36.280
in a manner that both the general
audience as well as bigfooters beat a skeptics

500
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:40.760
or believers can really like the book. And I've been really pleased has been

501
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:46.239
so far, has been really accepted
by the bigfoot community. That's why I,

502
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:51.079
yeah, I was absolutely concerned about
that. I was also concerned about

503
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:53.920
how, of course it's hardly by
a left still alive of the care and

504
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.559
only people still alive today that I
write about in the book, or is

505
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:02.039
Jim Claren and Jim Cruz is still
alive? Who was that was Jerry Crew's

506
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.679
nephew. And while I was writing
the book, Jay Rowland died, Al

507
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:15.400
Hodgson died. Peter Burn just died
in July. Wanja, who was Renee's

508
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.880
wife, died recently. I'm forgetting
a couple other people. Yeah, so

509
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:25.199
the last Mohicans is really Jim McClaren. Yeah, I was looking Sarah was.

510
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:31.440
I did my best in terms of
of Peter Bone. I'm not sure

511
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:36.000
if he was like how he was
portrayed in the book. I thought I

512
00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:40.639
was a charitable Yeah. When I
started my research, I knew that John

513
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:45.880
Green hated his guts. I always
assumed he was just jealous of Peter Burn.

514
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:52.039
With the more research I did,
I really understand where the contempt was

515
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:58.599
coming from. And that went on
for decades, and I think the problem

516
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:01.280
was Green and to him in particularly
in the seventies. And then we get

517
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.639
interviewed for documentaries and then when the
when it came out. The whole documentary

518
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:10.920
would be about Peter Burn. He's
this handsome guy with the Indiana Jones of

519
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:17.320
Fedora, He's got the British accent. He's this he's a big game hunter.

520
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:21.840
He just always stole their thunder and
it was it drolled. John Green

521
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:27.639
absolutely bonkers his entire life. That
And I think he called out that in

522
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:31.199
some of Peter Burn's books. He
didn't even refer to them by name,

523
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:37.880
right now, they both, Yeah, he never John Green would never printed

524
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:42.199
the name Peter Burn and of his
books, and in return he did the

525
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:46.079
Burnie did the same. I think
he refers to them derisively as the Canadian

526
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:50.960
journalists. And I'm not sure what
he gave me. Yeah, he calls

527
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:53.840
in his last autobiography he wrote a
few years ago, he actually does mention

528
00:40:54.239 --> 00:41:01.920
Bob Titmas because Bob Titmouse was actually
a name that right, and the coined

529
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:07.880
that one way back during the Pacific
Northwest Expedition. I didn't know how that

530
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:15.840
Renee and Bob Titmus just really did
not like each other. Did You Were

531
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:23.119
there certain resources that that those interactions
you found those in or was that pretty

532
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:27.880
evident? Another thing I took the
liveries in I blatantly took liberties. Aren't

533
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.000
was? So I have the the
chapter called White's Motels one of my favorite

534
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.679
ones. I haven't her niece read
the books. That I was our favorite

535
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:37.920
chapter. It's actually very accurate talking
about historical a piece of historical gold.

536
00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:44.079
Andrew is always another guy who had
He has his collection at Humboldt State University

537
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:47.800
and buried within his and oil was
to jump on the for a second.

538
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:53.199
I talked about throughout the book that
Jerry Crew had a drawing a trace the

539
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:58.559
tracks. That's actually in That's actually
in the collection. There's also all these

540
00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:02.880
old letters that people wrote Gonzoli from
all over the country in nineteen fifty eight.

541
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.679
That's in there. Anyway, I
found a let there's a ten page

542
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:13.039
memo written by Betty Allen, who
was another overlooked figure in Bigfoot history.

543
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:15.360
So she was actually there. I
believe it was November fifteenth, nineteen fifty

544
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:21.880
nine, is when all the Bigfoot
vanguard came. They had a mediant Wise

545
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:27.519
Motel headed by Tom Slick, laid
out the plants for the Pacific Noes with

546
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.760
expedition, and Betty wrote notes the
entire time she was there, ten pages

547
00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:37.400
worth basically saying this is who's there, this is what was said, these

548
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.239
were the comments, So a lot
of that stuff it was actually, I

549
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:42.880
know, I didn't make up.
One thing I did make up is the

550
00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:49.599
exchange or the argument between I just
went underscore how much they despise each other,

551
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.760
which is which was absolutely true.
That's interesting to know. Okay,

552
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:58.480
Yeah, that was a very good
scene for sure, And that's true.

553
00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:02.199
Jerry Crew busting in at the end, that's all true. Man, that's

554
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:07.000
awesome. Yeah, the old lady
in the corner, that's absolutely true.

555
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:12.719
And why is why motel is still
there. It's called Bigflip Bigflip Motel today,

556
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.519
but it looks very similar to what
it looked like in the late nineteen

557
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:21.119
fifties. In that cage, the
Jim White's cage, Bigfoot. The cage

558
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:24.960
is still in the back parking lot. The mannequin on that the cage.

559
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:29.480
The cage is still there. Oh
man, Yeah, I always want because

560
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:31.039
I found out about the cages,
I wish I could see it. And

561
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:36.440
then one day I was at the
Willow Creek Library going through the Calamity Courier

562
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:40.119
mag newspaper. I went through like
years and I just turned over a page

563
00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:42.960
and there was a picture of it. I was like, yes, I

564
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:45.519
finally saw it. That's something I
was going to ask you. Is that

565
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:52.239
newspaper digitized at all? It's Clamity
Courier, to my knowledge, is not.

566
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:54.360
So I had to go. I
had to go to the library and

567
00:43:54.480 --> 00:44:00.400
I just took pictures on my iPhone
of it. So yeah, the Advance,

568
00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:04.880
the Agacy Advance newspapers not digitized either. So I had to pay a

569
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:08.280
lot of unfortunately researchers during the pandemic, so I would have to like pay

570
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:13.800
private researchers to go get copies of
stuff for me. So I got all

571
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:17.679
the I got all the Humboldt Standard, Humboldt Times newspapers, got all this

572
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:24.039
Agacy Advance newspapers, and claim the
couriers. Yeah, newspapers are private.

573
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:30.840
Letters are my is the best newspapers
are great as well? Yeah, nothing

574
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:36.159
at top letters. There almost needs
to be a Dustin Sievers collection someday.

575
00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:40.119
I think that all the resources that
you were, that you've you've gotten together

576
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:45.400
for this book. I mean that
the calamity that was just really I didn't

577
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.840
know a lot about that, but
through your book, and you talked about

578
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:55.519
how Ray Wallace just started writing these
out of control letters to the newspaper and

579
00:44:55.639 --> 00:45:00.480
other and you had some wild ad
control claims. Do you think there was

580
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:06.039
any truth to any of that or
there's some wild stuff he was saying,

581
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:07.880
Yeah, Yeah, even said he
was involved with the Patterson. Yeah,

582
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:12.719
it's all absolutely ridiculous. And I'm
not sure how serious he was when he

583
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:16.639
said it, so I don't know. He's just an interesting fellow that Ray

584
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:22.559
Walls. Yeah, absolutely, will
we have to wait until the second book

585
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:27.880
to know if you think the Patterson
Gimlin film is true or not. Yes,

586
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.119
I'm gonna do my best keep someone
of a neutral tone in that one

587
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:37.440
as well. And yeah, speaking
of the Calamity Courier, just reminded me

588
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:43.400
the editor was a guy named Barry
Benny Carroll was another overlooked figure I never

589
00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.280
heard of the guy, just discovered
in through my own research. And when

590
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:53.360
Betty Allen left Humble County went back
to Alaska, I believe in nineteen sixty

591
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:59.239
five he took over the Bigfoot beat
in her Stead. And I had this

592
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.960
theory that I thought been Me and
Daniel Pereza had this competition going on trying

593
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:10.079
to figure out who wrote the October
twenty fifth first article nineteen sixty seven of

594
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:15.920
the Patterson film. It's called called
Missus Bigfoot was film, so it was

595
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:19.880
not a byeline given. So I've
been upset. He thinks this is a

596
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:23.360
guy named al Destadle, and maybe
I tend to disagree. So I've been

597
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:28.320
obsessed trying to find out who it
is. And Benny Carroll is one of

598
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:31.599
my top suspects. And I actually
found I got a list of every person

599
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:37.800
who worked for the newspaper in nineteen
sixty seven, found three of them that

600
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.000
are still alive, and I was
able to actually get him on the phone

601
00:46:40.039 --> 00:46:43.960
and talk to him, and every
time it's, yeah, we know what

602
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:47.400
you're talking about. I don't know
who wrote it. Oh man, it

603
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:52.400
seems like a frivolous detail, but
it's really not because he, according to

604
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:58.000
the story, he calls cold on
the night of October twenty is like around

605
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:05.280
nine o'clock from the Ranger station will
Creek and relays a story and it's pretty

606
00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:12.079
extensive story. And yeah, one
of the ladies I spoke to, she

607
00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:14.440
was very young obviously at the times. Is she's still alive, and she

608
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:16.360
said that it must have been a
It must have been a sports writer,

609
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:22.000
because only a sports writer in the
fall on a Friday, they would be

610
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:24.960
reporting on the football game, so
they would have answered the phone like,

611
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:30.199
that's interesting. So that's a really
interesting detail. Yeah, because there's always

612
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:35.039
theories that he was I don't know
if it's true that Patterson was inclusion with

613
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:38.400
somebody to write. I don't know
if that's truerous. For some reason,

614
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:43.239
I've always been obsessed with trying to
find out who the heck wrote that darn

615
00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:46.559
article. I'm not sure why.
I'm not sure why somebody was on the

616
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:53.320
editorial staff and get credit for what
article is on the front page. I

617
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:58.039
asked heard that. She said,
maybe they're embarrassed by it. So I

618
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:01.760
don't know. It's just interesting that
this date we don't know who wrot that

619
00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:07.400
very important. The first story ever
about the film, it was written like

620
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:12.880
hours. It was written literally hours
after the event allegedly occurred. Wow,

621
00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:17.440
were there while you were writing the
book? Were there any things that you

622
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:23.079
were trying to research that you just
had you? Yeah, you couldn't find

623
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:29.800
because it was like you tried to
research it, you can't find the resources

624
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:34.679
or the trail was cold. Yeah, there was some. I can't think

625
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.159
of any off. The one for
the second book has to do with trying

626
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:45.519
to find out the ghostwriter for Missus
Bigfoot was filmed. But yeah, yeah,

627
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.480
I had a lot of roadblocks that
I eventually broke through because I feel

628
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:55.280
like everything really came together in the
end. Yeah, it's disappointed almost everybody

629
00:48:55.280 --> 00:48:59.239
to write about it is no longer
alive. It's been so great to actually

630
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:02.159
interview John Green or read to hint. That's why I think it's really important

631
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:08.440
to get Jim McLaren's story on the
record. But of course he's he's probably

632
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:12.320
around my dad's age. I think
he's about seventy seven seventy eight. He's

633
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:16.000
in great health, probly he listens
South America. He's still trying to find

634
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:21.480
creatures that people say don't exist.
There's much smaller, not only he's looking

635
00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:25.440
for Beatles as opposed to Bigfoot.
That's interesting. So you were able to

636
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.360
interview Jim for this, Yeah,
oh cool. Yeah. Actually sent him

637
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:32.480
a copy of the book as well, hoping he likes it, and hope

638
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:37.360
he doesn't mind me calling him a
hippie, because he absolutely was a hippie.

639
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:39.880
Yeah, he's gonna be much more
prominent. E will write much more

640
00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:44.920
prominently about him in the second book. I have a big biography written up

641
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:47.559
about him as well as I'll hotch
him. But it's basically the same group

642
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:52.000
of people. That's why I think
it's still cool about the Bigfoot story throughout

643
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:57.960
this period is the same small fraternity
of guys involved. If from fifty eighth,

644
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:02.119
throughout the history of the Bigfoot story, even the Patterson film renade.

645
00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:07.800
Hendon owns the rights to the Patterson
film. Right he died, it was

646
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:12.320
handed over to his two sons.
So yeah, and that was throughout the

647
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:16.199
seventies. That is all about the
Patterson film, and and Don really turned

648
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:22.559
his focus away from being the Bush
to just acquiring the rights of Patter.

649
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:25.719
He got the right to the Patterson's
book, the film. He was obsessed

650
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:32.119
with acquiring the legacy of Patterson's legacy. I'm guessing that he got to a

651
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:36.760
point where, you know what,
I'm never gonna find one of these creatures.

652
00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:38.880
The chances of it happened is so
slim. I'm not even sure if

653
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:43.280
they're still alive. Maybe they went
extinct. I think he got to the

654
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:46.119
point where this is it. This
is not going to get any better than

655
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:50.960
the Patterson film. So if I
want to be the guy aultimately who found

656
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:57.239
Bickfoot, I think that's the best
route to go is to acquire the rights

657
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:02.320
to this film. And then he
spent most of his later years basically debunking

658
00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:07.920
other by other researchers. So I'm
sure you looked a lot into Renede de

659
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:13.199
Hindon, because it feels like you
were anyone that you wrote about you were

660
00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:17.440
really researching. Did you find that
he did a lot of traveling around the

661
00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:23.519
US to different bigfoot spots to investigate
things. Did you ever come up with

662
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:30.360
any info about that or did he
stick to out in certain areas? Now

663
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.719
he went, He did go all
over the country. I know he spent

664
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:37.840
a lot of time in Montana,
and of course his stomping grounds was the

665
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:42.360
Greater Harrison Hot Springs, those Mountains, Airbaldy Park, that area, and

666
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:45.440
he went up to the Great Bear, which is a fascinating place. He

667
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:49.679
spent a lot of time in there
in the sixties and yeah, I think

668
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:52.760
the seventies on he spent a lot
of time in Montana, And like I

669
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:58.239
said, he got the point where
he started turning his focus to Patterson film,

670
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:00.480
and I spent a lot more time
in the court room. They did

671
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:06.199
it up in the bush, right. It's a very interesting character. Your

672
00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:12.000
book has lit the fire under me. I'm in Central Iowa, so I

673
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:19.280
focus on the Iowa Bigfoot history stuff. And allegedly he did come out to

674
00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:24.320
Central Iowa to talk to some guys
during the seventies about Bigfoot, something that

675
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:29.400
happened regarding Bigfoot out here, but
just trying to track down what that exactly

676
00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:36.480
was. And as the key players
are either gone or extremely old at this

677
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.119
time, so we'll see if I
ever get the answers for that. Was

678
00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:47.360
there a something that, let's say
you're you'd come into the topic before you

679
00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:52.320
start writing it, and then out
of when you finished the book, you're

680
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:59.199
thinking was totally different about a certain
part of the story. Yeah, I

681
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:02.079
go back to Peter Burns. You
have all these guys wrote books, or

682
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:07.559
most of them didn't. They really
have these competing narratives. And now I

683
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:14.320
went into it assuming that the animosity
that Den and Tipmos and Green had towards

684
00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:20.119
burn which is out of jealousy,
but at the more research I did.

685
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:22.119
I don't think Peter Burn was a
bad guy. I don't think he was

686
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:27.320
a liar. I would use the
phrase I applied to Ivan Sanders, and

687
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:31.880
he was very economical with the truth. The embellished and his books really are

688
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:38.559
just chock full of errors and just
gross inconsistencies. Particularly he wrote that after

689
00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:44.159
Bob Timmus left the Pacific Northwest Expedition, they never heard from him again.

690
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:50.480
He knows that's not true. He
Bop Titmus in fact continued a relationship with

691
00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:55.880
Tom Slick in which he ran the
British Columbia Expedition for two years. He

692
00:53:55.960 --> 00:54:02.039
was as close to Tom Slick as
Peter Burn was, So perhaps he was

693
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:07.199
getting up there in years when he
wrote those last books. Perhaps that's the

694
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:12.360
reason. I know, as a
research I was just very frustrated reading his

695
00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:16.559
book, as there's so many contradictions
like he would tell For example, when

696
00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:22.320
he tells a story about when he
for they read the Yak and Yetti Bar

697
00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:27.079
and Katman do and they get a
letter from Tom Slick saying tell him about

698
00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:30.920
Bigfoot, he has another telling of
that story where he's in a cave and

699
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:36.079
a sure for a runner. Yeah, just Yeah, a lot of the

700
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:37.920
stories you can take with a grain
of salt, but he was, in

701
00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:43.719
fact, he was. That guy
went back to the nineteen forties. He

702
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:47.679
started even afford to Hinton and Green
was he was hunting the yetti before the

703
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:52.920
shifting shifting tracks came out. So
that guy is as old school as you

704
00:54:53.039 --> 00:55:00.199
get. So he's definitely one of
He's on the mountain Rushmore without a doubt.

705
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:06.920
As we start to wind down,
but I do have a final question

706
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:10.440
for you. So you spent time
out in that area, this area with

707
00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:17.239
Bluff Creek and Lous Camp and saying
so that do you think that there is

708
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:22.360
still a Bigfoot presence in that area
today? It doesn't appear to be.

709
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:27.360
And I just say that anybody's interested
in Bigfoot, they got to make You

710
00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:30.800
got to make the pilgrimage to Bluff
Greek. It really is a magical place.

711
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:35.199
And I'm a little scared to see
how much damage was done from the

712
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:37.199
fire, So I guess I'll see
why I go out there in the summer.

713
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.960
But it's such an amazing place.
And like I said, all the

714
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:44.679
historic spotsors just right next to each
other. I remember the first time I

715
00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:49.119
went up there I went across the
Notice Creek Bridge, which is right past

716
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:54.119
Loos Camp, and I write about
that, and there's actually inscribing the concrete.

717
00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:57.920
This is nineteen fifty eight. I
remember just getting a chill, and

718
00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:01.079
chill ran down my spine when I
read that. So, yeah, Bluff

719
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:05.719
Creek is a really magical place.
And back in the nineteen fifties it really

720
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:09.519
was the final frontier in America of
courses before last was admitted, you know,

721
00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:14.400
statehoods. So, as I write
the book, the fifties was the

722
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:19.159
right time and Bluff Creek was absolutely
the right place for Bigfoot. Bigfoot was

723
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.280
going to exist anywhere in the lower
forty eight and nineteen fifties out that would

724
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:27.920
be the spot. It is a
magical place from what I've heard, what

725
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:32.119
I've seen. Hopefully someday I will
be able to check it out. But

726
00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:38.760
Dustin Man, this has been such
a fun chat about your book. The

727
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:45.199
Bomdol Snowman of California. I highly
recommend everyone pick up a copy of This

728
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:52.000
is best place to get it on
Amazon still abs only places the laces being

729
00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:54.599
sold. Yeah, I always said
I did. I try to go with

730
00:56:54.639 --> 00:57:01.440
the traditional publisher irreconcilible creative difference,
so I have self publishing I ended up

731
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:06.599
doing. I was well with the
director's cut. I was ready to edit

732
00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:09.079
a lot of the book. I
knew it was pitched to a general audience.

733
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:13.039
When they're a traditional publisher, I
would have to really shrink it down.

734
00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:15.239
But when I knew I was on
the self publishing round, as of

735
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:17.119
the hell with it. I'm just
going to leave it all in there and

736
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:22.079
just have one big book, since
I probably be a Humich book for big

737
00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:25.719
photers. Yeah, yeah, oh
man. If this is the first time

738
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:30.360
that you've heard about it, those
that are listening, you need to pick

739
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:34.760
it up. If you're into bigfoot
history, if you're a nerd for bigfoot,

740
00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:38.079
or if you just like a good
read. It is a fascinating read,

741
00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:44.480
easy to read, but also tons
of details. Is something for everyone

742
00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:47.000
in this book. But Dustin,
thank you so much for coming on.

743
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:52.159
Is there a way that people can
keep up to date with what you're doing

744
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.960
and all that? I don't think
so. Like I anticipate around this time

745
00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:00.039
next year and having that second book
ready to go, so I'm sure I

746
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:05.800
try to promote it earlier next time. So I'm sure around the summertime you

747
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:08.039
be hearing about the second book.
I don't have a title for it yet,

748
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:10.519
but yeah, it just basically picks
up where the last one left off.

749
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:16.400
And as everybody knows, the Patterson
film is the most interesting thing about

750
00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:21.039
the Bigfoot history. So yeah,
that's gonna be wild, dude. I'm

751
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:22.800
looking forward to it. But thank
you so much for coming. Thanks,

752
00:58:22.840 --> 00:58:36.519
Jeremiah, appreciate it. This is
fun here at Bigfoot Society. Our goal

753
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:42.320
is to provide a platform for those
that have encountered Bigfoot to share their encounter

754
00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:46.000
and a safe and respected environment.
But we need to hear your story.

755
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:52.599
If you've experienced something that you just
can't explain, please send me an email

756
00:58:52.719 --> 00:58:58.480
at Bigfoot Society at gmail dot com. Then we can start the conversation.

757
00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:02.480
And I know a lot of you
have not shared your encounter at all.

758
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:08.280
It's been twenty years and it's time
that you get this off your chest and

759
00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:12.320
then you can get some well deserved
for rest, because I know you haven't

760
00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:16.320
been sleeping. I understand what you're
going through, and I appreciate every one

761
00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:17.039
of you listening