The Abominable Snowman of California: A Conversation with Dustin Severs

0:00 Either you're listening to the Big Fat Society podcast and I'm Jeremiah Bron. Every week I talk to individuals who have experienced Sasquatch in some way or another, so you won't want to miss an episode. Make sure you're subscribed on the platform that you're listening to, and share this episode where the friend does not cost a thing, and it helps the show continue to grow. If you'd like to hear Bigfoot Society episodes early in ad free, you can do so by becoming a Patreon supporter or a YouTube channel member. Links to those are in the show notes in Bigfoot Society, I've taken far too much of your time so far, so let's get on with the show, all right, Big Society. We got the privilege of talking with mister Dustin Severs. He is the author of a book that everyone should be well aware of. I'm going to talk about it for a few minutes right off the bat, The Abominable snow oh Man of California. And if you're watching YouTube, I want you to see how thick this is. It is almost five hundred pages, and wow, Dustin, it is such an incredible read. I want to say, first, hats off to you, it took you multiple years to write this, correct, That's correct. So actually I started. It's easy for me to remember. So I started writing it around the time of the fiftieth anniversary for the Patterson Gamblin film, which was October of twenty seventeen,

1:34 and I just launched a book on October twenty eighth, so it's been almost exactly six years. But actually I wrote I wrote a book in two thirds because I had originally set out to write a book about the Patterson Gimblin film, and I did that for a couple of years, and after a while it became obvious this is way too massive the book, so I say, hey, I could easily break this up into I wanted to cover the period from fifty eight to seventy nine, so I'll just is down in the middle, have a pre PG film book and a post for PG film book. So I'm saying I'm about sixty five seven percent done with the second book, which I'm hoping to launch on October twentieth, twenty twenty four. It's almost like multiple books in one. One way I can explain it is so I talk a lot with people like Teharonomus, Jonathan Easley, Ron Man, Reid, Alex Petakov. People have a lot of knowledge about the history, especially Tate. He's got a lot of history about how things align. And I've always thought, I was like, man, it would be great if there was just a place where all this stuff was, because there hadn't been a go to book where it's just all laid out the history and you don't have to keep texting Daniel Perez and and hopefully answer some random question you have.

3:01 Man, you lay it all out about all the crazy stuff that happened leading up to the Patterson Gimlin recording on October twenty sixties. And but it's way before that. It's back in the late fifties, and you're talking about Renee to Hindon and John Green and Bob Titmas and it's just it's wild. And I'm not a super bigfoot scholar, but just to see it all laid out, the creative nonfiction that goes back. Probably the person made it famous, Truman Capoti, when he wrote his book in Cold Blood in the early sixties. He did it much more than I did, I say, And for those who don't understand literary nonfictions, yeah, it does require the author to fill in gaps. They basically use techniques associate with novels, like dialogue and scenes, inner monologue. So I say the book is probably it's really probably eighty five percent just traditional nonfiction, mix in a little bit of literary nonfiction scenes and dialogue, and yeah, I do like to tell the scenes through the perspective of one particular person, and yes I did. But I went through tremendous pains of the as acrid as possible, So I knew from the get go. I was like a lot of people were going to love this literary nonfiction stuff. There's all the other people say, I liked the book, I just wish you didn't do this fake fictional dialogue, and yeah, it is fictional, but actually almost everything people. For example, there's a scene where I even Sanderson as two colleagues are driving the station wagon debate.

4:35 So I'm not I didn't want to write an analytical book looking at whether or not Bigfoot or the bottomost snowmallers reality, but I knew that I had to touch on that subject, so I did it through dialogue between two characters, and almost every thing that Ivan T. Sanderson says in that chapter or things he actually said in real life. So I've read so I've got so many Island t Sanders and books and interviews, and I just compiled this huge list and then I just made basically make an argument out of it. And that's how I've done almost all the scenes in the book. There's a chapter where al Hodgin's having a conversation with Don Abbott, and Al Austin actually said all those things that he's credited. I took tremendous pains to be as accurate as possible in the literary nonfiction scenes. Peter Burns in there that you have Jerry Crew and I had no idea how he lost his wife tragically and his background in Christianity was that from actual interviews that you read. Yeah, that's all absolutely true. Yeah, he was a bit of a religious fundamentalist. He was a believer in big Foot. He was adamant that he didn't believe in evolution as a creationist, so he was adamant that they foult existed. I think there's a monologuere he said, if these things exist, no one must have had him on the arc. It sounds a little cheesy, but he actually said that that's why I used it. Did he really? He actually

6:08 said that in an interview. There's also the scene where back and forth with Jimmy Stewart and I was like, man, you're hitting all the great and stuff, Jeremia. What makes any story great and interesting, be it a movie, a book, a play, is great characters. The story of the Bigfoot Legend has just an amazing cast of characters, some wacky, colorful guys. And as a writer was so fun so research and write about these guys, and you can ask y better characters to have to write about them, guys like Renee to Hindon, Ivan T. Sanderson, Ray Wallace, and then I've always found Green into Hendon's relationship so hysterical because the classic straight guy, wise guy duo comedy duo like from the Yeah, and my favorite Lanky and Crank, And that's I credit Todd Prescott. He's on when he came up with that, and I love it. So I told him right wildly, I'm going to use that in the book. Is that okay?

7:11 Yeah, sure, yeah, I use that throughout the book. And yeah, they're probably my two favorite. I say that. That's why I focus on the boat most is Green and Hindon and the same in the second book, it's mostly about Hindon and Green because it gets really interesting Green and to Hendon's relationship in the nineteen seventies. Yeah, it's amazing cast of characters, and Green and in are my Family, we talked about the most famous duo and Bigfoot history. Of course, people think of Roger Patterson and both the Emlin brothers who really know the history. They know the Ogs or Renee to Hendon and John Green. Undoubtedly. Was there a character that you found hardest to write from the perspective of Yeah, I think we have a really interesting character. To want to really explain to the reader what they're all about.

8:03 Is best to write from the perspective somebody else. For example, I have when I write about the scene with Ivan T. Sanderson is told from the perspective of Robert Christie, who was a pat who was an actual person who who traveled with him in that nineteen fifty nine trip for Random House when he was prepared for his book. Is when he introduced Sanderson to Bigfoot. And I can't stress enough how important a figure Ivan T. Sanderson is in Bigfoot history. So, yeah, they're all fun. I wanted to write from everybody's perspective. I try to get everybody, and yeah, I think I pretty much hit everything. There's probably some people I didn't write from their perspective, but it's always fun to mix it up. Hats off for figuring out how to pay homage to Renee the Hinden's way of talking in a fantastic way.

8:58 It just because I'm sure people going into this, like I've watched the videos on Todd Prescott's channel Sasquatch Archives. It does not pull any punches, but there's a scene that through me for a loop is it's so intense and I would love to know your thoughts behind the scene. It's the shotgun scene. And the great thing about this book is you go in the back and there's just a list for every chapter, like I got this part from this interview or from this and this, and I'm just curious the ideas for the shotgun scene. Where did that come from? And also what liberties did you take, if any, in that scene itself? Sure, yeah, that is a great scene, so it's absolutely true. First off, so I got that story from two separate people. I got from Keith Kyozari, who was the South African. He was a pilot, so he was physically there when it happened. And then the stort was crobbery by Thomas Steinberg. I spoke to Keith Kyazzari over the phone, great guy, doing well, and he told he reluctantly told me about it. He mentioned oh, and then I was like, well what happened? And he was hesitant to tell me.

10:16 He told me the story. So after that I messaged Thomas Steinberg. I was like, Thomas, have you ever heard this story? In Thomas chuckle? And He's like, yeah, John Green told me the story before he died, and John Green said he would never repeat the story until after Renee died. So it was yeah, the story was told by two people were physically there when it happened. As far as liberties, all I know is this Keith Kyzzari, and neither Keith Kyazzari or a John Green knew these specifics. All I know is it was extremely hot day and somehow Renee got stuck for hours, if not the entire day stranded. And then when they return, he was apple plectic and Green went up to him and he pointed shotgun at him, threaten to kill him. It is so intense and there The whole book would make a great movie, or maybe even a few movies really, but that scene. Who man, Yeah, I know I'm the first person to write it about. I believe Thomas has spoken about it on the podcast in the past. They had several risks throughout their life, so I think their falling out was at the Pacific Northwest Expedition, and then they always came back and then that was obviously a big one. They actually got back together after that, so it wasn't really the straw that broke the Campbell's back was in the early seventies is when John green was able to sell his newspaper, The Agacy Advance, and was able to make a living full time off of writing. And the safe to say that that Rene was just really

11:50 jealous. He had no fallback. He lived only for the Sasquatch, so when he saw Green having success off, I think he had a lot of envy. And then the way John Greene tells the story is that when he started, John started sharing some of his research, specifically pictures that when they had captured himself. That was the final straw the country to popularly, they didn't have a complete flying the band broke up. After that, they no longer collaborated together, but for your till the day to Hinton died, they continued to correspond through letters, through phone calls. They were together occasionally only Thomas Stein person. He's recalled several times where he had like dinner with him.

12:35 In the nineteen nineties, they didn't work with each other anymore and unfortunately did get really nasty. I have all I have scores of not hundreds of letters from the nineteen fifties to the late nineteen nineties between the Hendon Green and girlver Krantz and other people, and it got pretty nasty. It's exactly a John Green was such a nice guy and oh he totally yeah. Yeah. They're all flaw characters in the book. And I think one exception is probably John Green. He's really a foultful, intelligent, honest person and honestly renee for all his faults, and he was he was, no doubt like a ruthless sob, but he was nothing if not honest. He's always an honest person. He never he never claimed to see from his whole life in my ass, have you ever seen a sasquats? No, have you ever had any experiences. No, So he was a very honest guy. He's honest.

13:28 He's also a big jerk, but he's honest. Like he's one of those guys. I was like, maybe there'll be some redeeming. I think he has a lot of I think everybody knows mine in their life. Who the guy. He's a the person is a total asshole, but he's a good guy deep and deep down inside, and you like him for all his faults. So yeah, he's just a very extremely flawed person. Yeah, your book is great in showing that there were some really strong personalities and a lot of people just really did not like each other. And it's incredible that the whole thing just didn't fall apart early on more than I guess it did in some ways. Have you ever been to that area out there yourself?

14:18 Justin Oh? Yeah, So I live in southern Oregon. It's about ten miles north of the California border. And I actually my house where I'm sitting right now is actually sits on the foothills of the Klama Siscu Mountains, which is the same mountain where Angel which Bluff Creek is located. So it's about seventy miles as the crowd flies from where I live. It takes about three and a half hours to go out there. Yeah, I've been going out there for seven years now, at least a few times a year. Yes, I know the area. I feel like it's very important. You want to write about something, you really need to know the lay of the land yourself. So yeah, I go up there. I worked at Bluff Creek Project guys. Okay, Yeah, so that's how I know Tate and all those other guys. Jonathan, they come out there every somewhere aways ever summer can We typically go out there every October, but we lose a fire this year and then I felt, I'm not sure what happened the last two octobers, I have not been out there, and I always loved going out there around October twentieth. So you've been involved with different Bigfoot research parties. It sounds like, have you ever had any interesting things happen when you've been out there? I've ever heard anything, seeing anything, things of that nature.

15:28 I have not. Yeah, I'm a skeptic, but I'm not an evangelical skeptic. I'm not Greg Long when I wrote the book, and wasn't my intent to dissuade anybody either way. I really want the book to be liked by skeptics and believers alike, So that was my intent. Despite being a skeptic, I still have this tremendous romance and love for the for Bigfoots. Every time I go up to Bluff Creek, I'm always when I turn it off Highway ninety six and start going up to Go Road or Bluff Creek Road, always have flies in my stomach. I'm always looking around. I'm usually at my big Foot playlist going in my vehicle. So yeah, I love the legend. There was a part that the big Foot history I've never I guess I've knew a little bit about it, but the Blue Creek Mountain that was just fascinating sat in an area that you've actually have you ever been to that area? No? Yeah, absolutely, so it's actually, yeah, the Blue Creek is just the adjacent watershed the Bluff Creek. It's basically the same locations where they found the tracks in the summer of sixty seven, just a few miles from where the PG film side is and also where Jerry Krew made his first plaster cast. That's an amazing thing. About Bluff Creek is the holy of holies when it comes to big That's where it all started.

16:48 An amazing thing was all the most historic places like Laos Camp, the PG film side, Blue Creek Mountains, all within a few mile ratis of each other's. If you ever drive up there, you're pretty much Once you get there, you're close to all the great historic spots. It's not easy place to get to though, it's pretty rugged. So yeah, because in that Blue Creek Mountain area, like they said, there were like hundreds and hundreds of tracks that we're seeing, correct, Yeah, I believe there's thousands of them. Yeah, So yeah, and so yeah. So I say the book is there's three similar events that I cover in the book, And in part one I cover the fall, that classic fall of nineteen fifty eight and Humboldt County. Part three I cover the sliced expeditions which go from the fall of fifty nine to the fall of nineteen sixty two. Then chapter or excuse me a section four I cover the Big Year, as renade to Hinton referred to as, which is nineteen sixty seven. So you say nineteen sixty seven, you'll automatically think of the Patterson again one film. Of course, that's what everything culminated to that moment. So there's some amazing events that occurred that year before that, and the big one being the Blue Creek Mountain tracks, which were actually the tracks that Roger Patterson heard about which got him to get Bob Gamlin and him to go to Bluff Creek later that fall. Has there

18:18 ever been like a focus on the Blue Creek Mountain area, because I know it's right next to the film site, but it feels like it's being overlooked. And if there was an area where there was thousands of bigfoot foot tracks at one point, you think we would be looking a little bit, just a little bit into that area. But I'm I don't know. It's yeah, No, it's one of the seminal events. And I don't think it Riithers ever really wrote about it. John Green wrote about it his books. He doesn't go in tremendous detail of John Green, great guy. Is his writings about as dry as his speech was. Yeah, it's great information as a book, but they're certainly not page turners. But yeah, a lot of able information his books. But yeah, it was. It was a seminal moment in Bigfoot history, and that's what again, that's what prompted Roger Patterson to come to come to Bluff Creek with Bob Gimlin later that fall, and of course that's where the so the book cover is the what I like to refer to as the classic period of Bigfoot history. So that's the fall of nineteen fifty eight to the fall of sixty seven, the significance of the fall of nineteen fifty eight pns. That's when bigfoot, it was the origin, the genesis a bigfoot from as understood in American popular culture. I have to underscore that because it thin people who are true blue believers. Obviously, if Bigfoot is indeed a flesh and blood animal, it's been around for thousands,

19:48 not millions of years. But my book focuses on the history of Bigfoot in the American popular culture. So from that standpoint, Bigfoot absolutely started. On October fifth, nineteen fifty eight, when Andrew Gonzoli, was the regional editor for The Humble Times, wrote an article about Jerry krew and has had a picture of this plaster cast footprint, and he coined, this is a little controversial, but he was the first to coin the name Bigfoot. There was precursors, but as I write in the book, for all intents and purposes, that marked the genesis of Bigfoot. Of course nineteen the significance of nineteen sixty seven being the Patterson Gamblin film which changed everything. Patterson Patterson film is the essentral story when it comes to the big Foot legends. It was really a paradigm shift, I say, in three three ways with the Patterson Gamblin film. The symbolism of the Bigfoot legend transition from being these giant, inexplicable tracks in the earth to this shocking footage capture on code of chrome color and the crown jewel of evidence went from these plaster gas footprints to the film itself. In the face of the legend, went from Jerry CRU's picture to Patty doing his famous frame three fifty two strut. Another way it changes, how is the general public's conception of what Bigfoot was. During the classic period from fifty seven to sixty eight, Bigfoot was largely considered the eight wild man

21:18 as opposed to a giant ape, as John Green had long argued, specifically in British Columbia of the Sasquies. They were considered to be a band of an Indian tribe, essentially giant human beings with long hair on their head. And it's a little different in Bluff Creek in northern California, but they essentially believe Bigfoot was a wildman as well. With that all change with the patters In film, Patty is just what John Green had argued before, that is essentially this giant gorilla on human leg So this to this day, when people think of Bigfoot, they think of this giant gorilla and not a wildman.

21:59 And I say the third big change with the Patterson Gamlin film, it's just the popularity of the legend. So when when Ivan Sanderson published this article and Argus the magazine in nineteen fifty eight was the first which they published the photos from the Patterson Gamblin film, I say the Bigfoot legend was still somewhat local. I say, the vast majority of Americans have never heard of Bigfoot. Now you fast forward to January nineteen eighty one, when Ronald Reagan takes the oath of office, it's the household name. The entire country knows what Bigfoot was. Because in the nineteen seventies was the decade for Bigfoot at fifty seven.

22:40 Fifty eight to sixty seven was the classic period. Sixty seven to seventy nine was the golden age, and that's when he had all That's when you start having all these great, cheesy yet awesome documentaries, the Hollywood movies, the books, And that's why I dedicated the book to Gen X. So that was the generation that grew up in the seventies and eighties, and that's why they his Bigfoot is particularly special to that Gen X generation. I was born in seventy nine, so I was at the end of the gen exit. I didn't grow I wasn't a kid in the seventies, a kid in the eighties, by still saw all those great documentaries and movies, so I can totally relate. I always say that Bob Gimlin. So for almost thirty years, Bob Gemlin's was a recluse. He wouldn't talk about the Bigfoot legend or the film because he was pretty cool by his peers. Then in two thousand and three, he reluctantly agreed to attend the Bigfoot the International Bigfoot Symposium in Willow Creek, which was ran by Al Hodgson and John Green to people he really trusted. So he came in there. He came to the event and he spoke. He spoke yeah, and he was shocked and the ovation he received was like a rock star And he may have wondered, what changed.

23:52 I can tell you exactly what change all those kids that from the nineteen seventies they grew up watching all this stuff on all these films about Bigfoot. We're now the adults run in the world. Yeah, so The Night. So that's the second book I'm working on that. It really focused on the PG film and its aftermath and how it just absolutely blew up in the nineteen seventies. So again, I can't stress the significance of that decade, to me is the best decade when it comes to Bigfoot. And it's all credited to the Patterson Gamblin film. That was the absolutely that was a catalyst that got everything going. Do you have a favorite documentary that you remember watching?

24:33 Yeah, like old ones? Yeah, I do. One of the older ones. Yeah, I can't. I get the names mixed up. Some are better than other others. As far as recent ones, I really like the Sasquatch Odyssey. We're just some of it in my book as one inspirations for the book. But yeah, I love all those. Lennard Neimoy in Search of and author C. Clark had some I love. I love all the documentaries too. There's one in particular, one documentary that particular, I heap your names mixed up and people just don't understand that that back in the nineteen seventies is obviously before the internet. It is also before cable television. You would have these documentaries on network television. This is a time where if either had a slot on primetime network television, they would get thirty forty fifty million people watching it. It's very different from today. And the Patterson Gamblin film was showed repeatedly in documentaries throughout the nineteen seventies, which is the reason that it eventually guarded that reputation as being the second most watched amateur film and history, second only to the Zapruter film. I don't think the Zapruiter film was released like seventy five or seventy six, But yeah, all about the nineteen seventies is a fascinating topic. But yeah, my book focuses on that period before the Patterson gamblin film fifty seventies to fifty eight to sixty seven, which was all about giant tracks as opposed to the film. What are your thoughts on on Ray Wall. How do you view him as an individual, because he is a large part of this book at the beginning and at the

26:06 end of it. Yeah, sure so, I actually really as the more research I did on the guy, I really came to really like the guy. He was a bat shit crazy, but he was a functional He was a functional nut. He was actually quite successful in his career. He ran several businesses, He had a family, He was a loving father, somewhat of a pillar in the community, although everybody knew he was a little lumni. Between his Bigfoot exploits to his astronomical work with flying saucers, that was interesting. Yeah, I really know. I don't believe that he's responsible for all the tracks were up there. I would say my guess was perhaps he was the main culprit. But my guess is several people were faking tracks up there, but maybe not. So I tried to give it a fair shake.

26:56 It wasn't to the last chapter of the book that really looking to the legitimacy of the Crew tracks and the Blue the Double Ball tracks kept this distinguished between those two. So I'll do that real quick. So the Double Ball tracks had a that's a term that John Green used to describe him. Some people all this split Ball basically had this hour glass shaped to it. Is a very unique track, and those by far the most prevalent tracks found up and Bluff Creek throughout this classic period. But the interesting thing was is that the Crew track, the original tracks he helped they held up the cast he held up on the October fifth, nineteen fifty eight is actually a different kind of tracks. So when Ray Wallace died in two thousand and two, his family went to the newspapers and this went viral and he said he our father was big foot, and they had proof. So they showed this whole trove of stompers I call him in the book. Basically, they're like snowshotes, wooden shoes. He can strap on the boots like snowkles chomping about, and they are actually so that some of the stoppers have were absolutely identical to the Double Ball tracks. And there's also a set of tracks that rich are a dead ringer for the original track that Jerry Crew made a plaster cast of However, John Green makes a counter argument to this, So the Blue Creek,

28:29 So I keep saying the Blue Creek Mountain. The double Ball tracks were first found by Bob Tipmans in November nineteen fifty eight, and around that time he and Jerry Crew, who were childhood friends, made replica copies of the plaster cast and were selling them. So they were all over the place in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. So John Green argues that yeah, they are his Stompers are dead Ringers. He simply took those replicas and used as a template to make it Stompers. So the chick the a argument. So I try to give a I try to give both sides and even shake in that last chapter, and it's a legitimate argument that John Green makes. One of the coolest parts of the book. I love it are the drawn maps at the beginning. What's the story behind those maps? Because they are fantastic.

29:21 I know. I'll tell you this story about a guy named William Salivan. You probably I have an entire shelfle of his books. He does hiking Oregon hiking books, and he's been doing it for probably twenty thirty years, and they're extremely popular. He constantly comes out of new editions and I have always been absolutely in love of his maps. I think they're so cool. But when I knew I want to make maps, email this guy and I said, hey, I'm a huge fan. All I have an entire shell full of your hiking books on a trail runner, so I use his books all the time. Ago the thing I like love the most is your maps are so great. And he's a local historian to history books, and this is somewhat local history, as Buffbridge is seventy miles from here, and I asked, I, would you be willing to make the mass mark books and he said he'd never done before, but he'd be happy to do it. So Yeah, I was absolutely thrilled to have his mass I'm glad you say that because I love the books the maps too. I think there's fun. That's what I like about the most. There's they really think I would get the reader excited to really dive into the book. I've heard these places over the last few years from people like Tate and Jonathan, Alex and Ron and all those guys, and it's cool because these maps they lay it all out.

30:37 Oh, it's all this stuff is right here. And there's a one that's more detailed of the area around the film site in Laos Camp. There's also one that's a little bit wider out of the northern California area, and it's you're not going to You can't just find maps like that anywhere else, like you have to have them in a very space civic resource. This book that you've written, So taking a few years in a project like this, were there any parts of it where you're writing it but you're finding out new stuff? The story is changing as I'm writing it because I'm starting to find this new evidence. And were there any parts that this story just seemed to have a life of its own while you were trying to put it on paper.

31:25 Yeah. Absolutely. So they always say that you don't have to be an expert on the subject matter when you start a book on when you finish it. So that was certainly the case for me. A lot of stuff I was learning as I went, and I thought, I've learned more stuff and I have to go back. Yeah. I spent six years just obsessively going through newspaper archives, and that's when advantage of writers today have over those from just ten years ago. Is we have this amazing resource where all these newspapers are digitized now that now the Humble Times and Humble Standard have not been digitized. So I actually had to go old school. I had to drive the Humble State Universe and go through the micro film and that took a lot of work. So I was able to get all that stuff uncomforted. A lot of stuff has never been uncovered before. I think I was the first person to really write about the British Columbia expedition, so I was able to find a troll of letters between Bob Tipmus and Tom Slick. And yeah, it was really fun. Probably doing the research is a fun part. When you had to sit down and write, that's when it gets really hard. But yeah, it was a blast in the research. And yeah, I had no clue that when I started the book I was going to take me like two years. I had no clue the rabbit hole I was already entered down.

32:44 And it was my goal, and it was a lofty goal. I mean, I wanted to write the most comprehensive book I've written about bigfoot history. Because when I got into this subject, when I moved here in the spring of twenty sixteen. I was shot. There wasn't much out there. There's been a couple people who have written books about the major personalities in the in this classic Pyradids, it's just very on the surface. They don't do a deep dive. So I thought, why would be amazing you have this historical writer with somebody like David Grant or Eric Larson or John Krackhauer, which really what took take on this subject and spend a couple of years researching and writing it. They all give it a try. I always loved books. I love history, I particularly love origin stories. I love anytime there's something that I'm interested. I'm always asking us how did this start? Particularly, we had these subjects where everybody's generally familiar with they don't really know the really the true story, the facts from the fictions. So that's what that was the goal I set out in writing this one, and the being very ambitious undertaking. But somehow I finished it. How did you find the tipmus letters?

33:55 Where were those out? They're in University of Texas at San Antonio is Tom Slick donated his collection there and it's a massive collection. Fortunately, a lot of lot of the main characters have the collections. Ivan T. Sanderson has a massive collection which is held in Philadelphia, against Slicks is in San Antonio. John Green's is the right out side of Harrison Hot Springs, and then Bob Tipmos and I'll hatch them have their collection at the Willow Creek Museum. Probably miss forget some other people as well. So yeah, there's some great resources out there. So that's a China Flats museum. Correct, Okay, what's in the Bob Titmus collection. They have display where they show the cast and stuff. All the letters and stuff are actually upstairs and not open to the public. So I'd ask the curator if I could go through, and she happily agreed to let me do so. I was not shot at what I how much cool stuff there was. And there like the letter that I'd always heard that in the fall of fifty eight that Bob Titmus in a letter to Green tell him to come up about because that's when he first discovered the double ball tracks. I didn't know that letter actually existed. It was actually in the file. I found some stuff and some that's pretty pretty surprising.

35:14 I can't talk about Yeah, I was like wow there for a while, I've always closed to find Outward Patterson process the film. I got really excited. Ivan Sanderson is the best great letters. He's such an interesting guy. And John Green on his entire life, he made copies of every single letter he ever wrose, which is so fortunate we have all that stuff to review. Talking about Bob Tipmis, do you think he was faking evidence store or what? Do you your thoughts on that. I don't know there's any evidence that he faked tracks. Based on my impression I got Bob Tiittmus from his letter. He seems like a very, very thoughtful, intelligent guy, and he seemed like a serious guy. I know that Evan Sanderson really didn't trust him, Andrew Gonzilli didn't trust him, and of course, of of course Peter burn and renade and despised him. I in my opinion, he's the most overlooked figure in Bigfoot history, mostly because he's never He never talked, you make any movies in it, writing books, He rarely did an interview. He did he did an interview with the International Cryptosiology Society. I mean said that wrong in the mid nineties, which is gold and I believe Daniel Perez did an interview him in the nineties as well. There's almost nothing out there when he comes to Bob tipmos And in my opinion, the Mount rushmore of Bigfoot researchers is Green, the hindon, Peter Burn and Bob tipmos

36:45 So, and that in the Sasquatch Odyssey documentary, which is a wonderful documentary, they had the four Horsemen, they have the Green to Hint and Burn, and they have Grover krans and Grover Krantz is Yeah, he's certainly a significant figure. But yeah, I think the I think Tim's left out simply to the fact there's no there's hardly any film or interviews or anything out the guy. Well, yeah, I think he's overlooked. I think Jim McLaren is another guy who's really overlooked when it comes to Bigfoot history. And Jim claarreen is still alive and well he is got intelligent guy. Mm hmm, yeah, fascinating guy, very intelligent person. I love how you you have that the scene in the book where it's like there's a lot of stuff in the book where if you're like a Bigfoot nerd, you're Oh my goodness, that's it has Jim like like, oh my, the old my statue hasn't been carved yet, and it's just it's very almost back to the future in a way when you're reading the story the book, because you know where it's going. But it's very cool for sure. Is there a part in here where you're you're a little bit you're not sure how it might be taken by the community or any that you think might be more controversial than others the way you interpreted it, Yeah, I try to. I try to keep some of the neutral tone. I think I was successful most of the time.

38:15 But yeah, I think it probably came out that was perhaps in the end of the introduction and probably literally the last page and a half is the only time I really get really explicit on my own personal views. But like I said, I really want to go on my way to to write the book in a manner that both the general audience as well as bigfooters beat a skeptics or believers can really like the book. And I've been really pleased has been so far, has been really accepted by the bigfoot community. That's why I, yeah, I was absolutely concerned about that. I was also concerned about how, of course it's hardly by a left still alive of the care and only people still alive today that I write about in the book, or is Jim Claren and Jim Cruz is still alive? Who was that was Jerry Crew's nephew. And while I was writing the book, Jay Rowland died, Al Hodgson died. Peter Burn just died in July. Wanja, who was Renee's wife, died recently. I'm forgetting a couple other people. Yeah, so the last Mohicans is really Jim McClaren. Yeah, I was looking Sarah was.

39:25 I did my best in terms of of Peter Bone. I'm not sure if he was like how he was portrayed in the book. I thought I was a charitable Yeah. When I started my research, I knew that John Green hated his guts. I always assumed he was just jealous of Peter Burn. With the more research I did, I really understand where the contempt was coming from. And that went on for decades, and I think the problem was Green and to him in particularly in the seventies. And then we get interviewed for documentaries and then when the when it came out. The whole documentary would be about Peter Burn. He's this handsome guy with the Indiana Jones of Fedora, He's got the British accent. He's this he's a big game hunter.

40:17 He just always stole their thunder and it was it drolled. John Green absolutely bonkers his entire life. That And I think he called out that in some of Peter Burn's books. He didn't even refer to them by name, right now, they both, Yeah, he never John Green would never printed the name Peter Burn and of his books, and in return he did the Burnie did the same. I think he refers to them derisively as the Canadian journalists. And I'm not sure what he gave me. Yeah, he calls in his last autobiography he wrote a few years ago, he actually does mention Bob Titmas because Bob Titmouse was actually a name that right, and the coined that one way back during the Pacific Northwest Expedition. I didn't know how that Renee and Bob Titmus just really did not like each other. Did You Were there certain resources that that those interactions you found those in or was that pretty evident? Another thing I took the liveries in I blatantly took liberties. Aren't was? So I have the the chapter called White's Motels one of my favorite ones. I haven't her niece read the books. That I was our favorite chapter. It's actually very accurate talking about historical a piece of historical gold.

41:38 Andrew is always another guy who had He has his collection at Humboldt State University and buried within his and oil was to jump on the for a second. I talked about throughout the book that Jerry Crew had a drawing a trace the tracks. That's actually in That's actually in the collection. There's also all these old letters that people wrote Gonzoli from all over the country in nineteen fifty eight. That's in there. Anyway, I found a let there's a ten page memo written by Betty Allen, who was another overlooked figure in Bigfoot history. So she was actually there. I believe it was November fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine, is when all the Bigfoot vanguard came. They had a mediant Wise Motel headed by Tom Slick, laid out the plants for the Pacific Noes with expedition, and Betty wrote notes the entire time she was there, ten pages worth basically saying this is who's there, this is what was said, these were the comments, So a lot of that stuff it was actually, I know, I didn't make up. One thing I did make up is the exchange or the argument between I just went underscore how much they despise each other, which is which was absolutely true. That's interesting to know. Okay, Yeah, that was a very good scene for sure, And that's true.

42:58 Jerry Crew busting in at the end, that's all true. Man, that's awesome. Yeah, the old lady in the corner, that's absolutely true. And why is why motel is still there. It's called Bigflip Bigflip Motel today, but it looks very similar to what it looked like in the late nineteen fifties. In that cage, the Jim White's cage, Bigfoot. The cage is still in the back parking lot. The mannequin on that the cage. The cage is still there. Oh man, Yeah, I always want because I found out about the cages, I wish I could see it. And then one day I was at the Willow Creek Library going through the Calamity Courier mag newspaper. I went through like years and I just turned over a page and there was a picture of it. I was like, yes, I finally saw it. That's something I was going to ask you. Is that newspaper digitized at all? It's Clamity Courier, to my knowledge, is not.

43:52 So I had to go. I had to go to the library and I just took pictures on my iPhone of it. So yeah, the Advance, the Agacy Advance newspapers not digitized either. So I had to pay a lot of unfortunately researchers during the pandemic, so I would have to like pay private researchers to go get copies of stuff for me. So I got all the I got all the Humboldt Standard, Humboldt Times newspapers, got all this Agacy Advance newspapers, and claim the couriers. Yeah, newspapers are private. Letters are my is the best newspapers are great as well? Yeah, nothing at top letters. There almost needs to be a Dustin Sievers collection someday.

44:36 I think that all the resources that you were, that you've you've gotten together for this book. I mean that the calamity that was just really I didn't know a lot about that, but through your book, and you talked about how Ray Wallace just started writing these out of control letters to the newspaper and other and you had some wild ad control claims. Do you think there was any truth to any of that or there's some wild stuff he was saying, Yeah, Yeah, even said he was involved with the Patterson. Yeah, it's all absolutely ridiculous. And I'm not sure how serious he was when he said it, so I don't know. He's just an interesting fellow that Ray Walls. Yeah, absolutely, will we have to wait until the second book to know if you think the Patterson Gimlin film is true or not. Yes, I'm gonna do my best keep someone of a neutral tone in that one as well. And yeah, speaking of the Calamity Courier, just reminded me the editor was a guy named Barry Benny Carroll was another overlooked figure I never heard of the guy, just discovered in through my own research. And when Betty Allen left Humble County went back to Alaska, I believe in nineteen sixty five he took over the Bigfoot beat in her Stead. And I had this theory that I thought been Me and Daniel Pereza had this competition going on trying to figure out who wrote the October twenty fifth first article nineteen sixty seven of

46:10 the Patterson film. It's called called Missus Bigfoot was film, so it was not a byeline given. So I've been upset. He thinks this is a guy named al Destadle, and maybe I tend to disagree. So I've been obsessed trying to find out who it is. And Benny Carroll is one of my top suspects. And I actually found I got a list of every person who worked for the newspaper in nineteen sixty seven, found three of them that are still alive, and I was able to actually get him on the phone and talk to him, and every time it's, yeah, we know what you're talking about. I don't know who wrote it. Oh man, it seems like a frivolous detail, but it's really not because he, according to the story, he calls cold on the night of October twenty is like around nine o'clock from the Ranger station will Creek and relays a story and it's pretty extensive story. And yeah, one of the ladies I spoke to, she was very young obviously at the times. Is she's still alive, and she said that it must have been a It must have been a sports writer, because only a sports writer in the fall on a Friday, they would be reporting on the football game, so they would have answered the phone like, that's interesting. So that's a really interesting detail. Yeah, because there's always theories that he was I don't know if it's true that Patterson was inclusion with somebody to write. I don't know if that's truerous. For some reason, I've always been obsessed with trying to find out who the heck wrote that darn

47:44 article. I'm not sure why. I'm not sure why somebody was on the editorial staff and get credit for what article is on the front page. I asked heard that. She said, maybe they're embarrassed by it. So I don't know. It's just interesting that this date we don't know who wrot that very important. The first story ever about the film, it was written like hours. It was written literally hours after the event allegedly occurred. Wow, were there while you were writing the book? Were there any things that you were trying to research that you just had you? Yeah, you couldn't find because it was like you tried to research it, you can't find the resources or the trail was cold. Yeah, there was some. I can't think of any off. The one for the second book has to do with trying to find out the ghostwriter for Missus Bigfoot was filmed. But yeah, yeah, I had a lot of roadblocks that I eventually broke through because I feel like everything really came together in the end. Yeah, it's disappointed almost everybody to write about it is no longer alive. It's been so great to actually interview John Green or read to hint. That's why I think it's really important to get Jim McLaren's story on the record. But of course he's he's probably around my dad's age. I think he's about seventy seven seventy eight. He's in great health, probly he listens South America. He's still trying to find

49:16 creatures that people say don't exist. There's much smaller, not only he's looking for Beatles as opposed to Bigfoot. That's interesting. So you were able to interview Jim for this, Yeah, oh cool. Yeah. Actually sent him a copy of the book as well, hoping he likes it, and hope he doesn't mind me calling him a hippie, because he absolutely was a hippie. Yeah, he's gonna be much more prominent. E will write much more prominently about him in the second book. I have a big biography written up about him as well as I'll hotch him. But it's basically the same group of people. That's why I think it's still cool about the Bigfoot story throughout this period is the same small fraternity of guys involved. If from fifty eighth, throughout the history of the Bigfoot story, even the Patterson film renade.

50:02 Hendon owns the rights to the Patterson film. Right he died, it was handed over to his two sons. So yeah, and that was throughout the seventies. That is all about the Patterson film, and and Don really turned his focus away from being the Bush to just acquiring the rights of Patter. He got the right to the Patterson's book, the film. He was obsessed with acquiring the legacy of Patterson's legacy. I'm guessing that he got to a point where, you know what, I'm never gonna find one of these creatures. The chances of it happened is so slim. I'm not even sure if they're still alive. Maybe they went extinct. I think he got to the point where this is it. This is not going to get any better than the Patterson film. So if I want to be the guy aultimately who found Bickfoot, I think that's the best route to go is to acquire the rights to this film. And then he spent most of his later years basically debunking other by other researchers. So I'm sure you looked a lot into Renede de Hindon, because it feels like you were anyone that you wrote about you were really researching. Did you find that he did a lot of traveling around the US to different bigfoot spots to investigate things. Did you ever come up with any info about that or did he stick to out in certain areas? Now he went, He did go all over the country. I know he spent

51:32 a lot of time in Montana, and of course his stomping grounds was the Greater Harrison Hot Springs, those Mountains, Airbaldy Park, that area, and he went up to the Great Bear, which is a fascinating place. He spent a lot of time in there in the sixties and yeah, I think the seventies on he spent a lot of time in Montana, And like I said, he got the point where he started turning his focus to Patterson film, and I spent a lot more time in the court room. They did it up in the bush, right. It's a very interesting character. Your book has lit the fire under me. I'm in Central Iowa, so I focus on the Iowa Bigfoot history stuff. And allegedly he did come out to Central Iowa to talk to some guys during the seventies about Bigfoot, something that happened regarding Bigfoot out here, but just trying to track down what that exactly was. And as the key players are either gone or extremely old at this time, so we'll see if I ever get the answers for that. Was there a something that, let's say you're you'd come into the topic before you start writing it, and then out of when you finished the book, you're thinking was totally different about a certain part of the story. Yeah, I go back to Peter Burns. You have all these guys wrote books, or most of them didn't. They really have these competing narratives. And now I

53:07 went into it assuming that the animosity that Den and Tipmos and Green had towards burn which is out of jealousy, but at the more research I did. I don't think Peter Burn was a bad guy. I don't think he was a liar. I would use the phrase I applied to Ivan Sanders, and he was very economical with the truth. The embellished and his books really are just chock full of errors and just gross inconsistencies. Particularly he wrote that after Bob Timmus left the Pacific Northwest Expedition, they never heard from him again. He knows that's not true. He Bop Titmus in fact continued a relationship with Tom Slick in which he ran the British Columbia Expedition for two years. He was as close to Tom Slick as Peter Burn was, So perhaps he was getting up there in years when he wrote those last books. Perhaps that's the reason. I know, as a research I was just very frustrated reading his book, as there's so many contradictions like he would tell For example, when he tells a story about when he for they read the Yak and Yetti Bar and Katman do and they get a letter from Tom Slick saying tell him about Bigfoot, he has another telling of that story where he's in a cave and a sure for a runner. Yeah, just Yeah, a lot of the stories you can take with a grain of salt, but he was, in

54:38 fact, he was. That guy went back to the nineteen forties. He started even afford to Hinton and Green was he was hunting the yetti before the shifting shifting tracks came out. So that guy is as old school as you get. So he's definitely one of He's on the mountain Rushmore without a doubt. As we start to wind down, but I do have a final question for you. So you spent time out in that area, this area with Bluff Creek and Lous Camp and saying so that do you think that there is still a Bigfoot presence in that area today? It doesn't appear to be.

55:23 And I just say that anybody's interested in Bigfoot, they got to make You got to make the pilgrimage to Bluff Greek. It really is a magical place. And I'm a little scared to see how much damage was done from the fire, So I guess I'll see why I go out there in the summer. But it's such an amazing place. And like I said, all the historic spotsors just right next to each other. I remember the first time I went up there I went across the Notice Creek Bridge, which is right past Loos Camp, and I write about that, and there's actually inscribing the concrete. This is nineteen fifty eight. I remember just getting a chill, and chill ran down my spine when I read that. So, yeah, Bluff Creek is a really magical place. And back in the nineteen fifties it really was the final frontier in America of courses before last was admitted, you know, statehoods. So, as I write the book, the fifties was the right time and Bluff Creek was absolutely the right place for Bigfoot. Bigfoot was going to exist anywhere in the lower forty eight and nineteen fifties out that would be the spot. It is a magical place from what I've heard, what I've seen. Hopefully someday I will be able to check it out. But Dustin Man, this has been such a fun chat about your book. The Bomdol Snowman of California. I highly recommend everyone pick up a copy of This is best place to get it on Amazon still abs only places the laces being sold. Yeah, I always said I did. I try to go with

56:54 the traditional publisher irreconcilible creative difference, so I have self publishing I ended up doing. I was well with the director's cut. I was ready to edit a lot of the book. I knew it was pitched to a general audience. When they're a traditional publisher, I would have to really shrink it down. But when I knew I was on the self publishing round, as of the hell with it. I'm just going to leave it all in there and just have one big book, since I probably be a Humich book for big photers. Yeah, yeah, oh man. If this is the first time that you've heard about it, those that are listening, you need to pick it up. If you're into bigfoot history, if you're a nerd for bigfoot, or if you just like a good read. It is a fascinating read, easy to read, but also tons of details. Is something for everyone in this book. But Dustin, thank you so much for coming on.

57:47 Is there a way that people can keep up to date with what you're doing and all that? I don't think so. Like I anticipate around this time next year and having that second book ready to go, so I'm sure I try to promote it earlier next time. So I'm sure around the summertime you be hearing about the second book. I don't have a title for it yet, but yeah, it just basically picks up where the last one left off. And as everybody knows, the Patterson film is the most interesting thing about the Bigfoot history. So yeah, that's gonna be wild, dude. I'm looking forward to it. But thank you so much for coming. Thanks, Jeremiah, appreciate it. This is fun here at Bigfoot Society. Our goal is to provide a platform for those that have encountered Bigfoot to share their encounter and a safe and respected environment. But we need to hear your story.

58:46 If you've experienced something that you just can't explain, please send me an email at Bigfoot Society at gmail dot com. Then we can start the conversation. And I know a lot of you have not shared your encounter at all. It's been twenty years and it's time that you get this off your chest and then you can get some well deserved for rest, because I know you haven't been sleeping. I understand what you're going through, and I appreciate every one of you listening